Power Kite Forum

Homemade RAGE 5.5, owners, help me!!!

xeriotti - 30-12-2008 at 05:18 PM

i everyone, Im starting a project to build my own kitewing, using the measures off a RAGE 55 Kitewing.
I need help from the guys at the forum that own a RAGE 5.5, I need some measures and pictures. Below I posted a rough schematic and a few pictures, with the measures i need to know.

Please grab a measuring tape and measure your wing, then post the measures here, Ill post the finished plans when ready, the project will be documented step by step at this forum, so everybody can make its own :D




Front tube diameter:
Front tube lenght:
Front tube tip to cross tube joint:
Front tube tip to Y-tube joint:
Front tube extension lenght (when straight):

Y-tube diameter
Y-tube lenght:

Crosstube diameter:
Crosstube lenght:

Boom Diameter:
Boom lenght (measured against a flat surface, tip to tip):
Boom height (on a flat furface at the highest point):
Boom rear end to Y-tube joint:

Batten Lenght (tip to tip, straightline):
Batten height (on a flat surface at the highest point):

Diameter and lenght of the rope that links the top tubes and the boom:

Wingspan of the sail extended on the ground:
Sail lenght extended on the ground:




If your willing to help, just write your email, or send me a PM telling me that i can count on you...

Thanks :D

xeriotti - 30-12-2008 at 05:20 PM

Direct link to the image just in case, 10 minutes of your time measuring your wing can be really useful to me and to the whole net looking for kitewing plans....

:D

KYTE SLINGER - 30-12-2008 at 08:19 PM

Hummmmmmmm.....


so your saying that you want to pirate a kite wing {rage 5.5m} and POST it on the world wide web

quote"so everybody can make there own "


hehehehehehehehehehehe you frickin crack me up

KYTE SLINGER - 30-12-2008 at 08:35 PM

I know , I know !!!!!

why don't you just call them up

and ask them :thumbup:

xeriotti - 30-12-2008 at 10:19 PM

Even if its an exact replica, it will never be as good as a real factory kitewing... its just a project to calm my anxiety till i get the bux to buy a real one...

Is somebody willing to help or will just laugh and defend someone elses bussiness (maybe KYTE SLINGER works for the kitewing manufacturing company :S)

I need just a few measures... at least the front tube lenght, front tube extension lenght an Y-tube lenght... the rest can be calculated, copied from photographs and drawings posted by the company itself...

Please, some help over here!!!

ripsessionkites - 31-12-2008 at 01:41 AM

why not save your money from this project and buy one

let someone else do the R&D and enjoy the wind instead

xeriotti - 31-12-2008 at 08:08 AM

The problem is that....a new wing over here...costs 1400 dollars... and I can make this complete wing for... lets say.... 300

Arent there in the market chinese sails or aftermarket sails??? the tubing can be made in one day of work....

kiteNH - 31-12-2008 at 08:15 AM

I'd say that there is nothing wrong with trying to make your own wing. It's asking others to measure up an existing design so that you can make an exact replica and then stating that you're going to post up the design for others to rip off as well that got people ruffled.

I'd say save your $300 and start searching for a used wing. You'll have something better than a homebrew but cheaper than brand new.

xeriotti - 31-12-2008 at 08:22 AM

There are no wings sell in my country yet.... havent seen any, havent heard about any....havent seen it advertised in any magazine or local ebay or nothing.... conventional kites are everywheere.....but no wings yet...the cost way too much.... if the were 700 dollars like the price abroad iŽd buy one right now.....but at 1400 dollars i think its not a good idea...

ragden - 31-12-2008 at 08:28 AM

Whats going to kill you is shipping. You could probably buy one from someone here on the forums, but the shipping is what will hurt you. I have no idea what it would take to ship a kite to your location.

dylanj423 - 31-12-2008 at 08:36 AM

It would seem that you would spend a lot of cash putting together an exact replica, when you could just rig something up that would be "good enough" for next to nothing.

Its just that requesting an exact replica to post for everyone would seem a bit... unethical.:puzzled:

Not to mention that if they found out, they could sue the crap out of you.

xeriotti - 31-12-2008 at 08:55 AM

Im not talking about an exact replica....my kitewing attempt will assemble with bolts, will be full aluminum frame, and the sail will be made at a custom sail shop from standard dacron (a monofilm window would be nice)

I dont want an EXACT replica...y just want to know the dimensions to build something that can pull e thru the beach... its imposible to make an exact replica without having the real wing to take measures.... i just want to aproximate the most posible to the general geometry of the sail.... the assembly and the rest of the stuff is pure homemade and planned to be as simple and cheap possible....

Post some measures from the list... you wont regret seeing my smiling face in a month or two with my crappy DIY wing in my hands :D

Promote the sport....make a third world guy happy :D

KYTE SLINGER - 31-12-2008 at 09:29 AM

promote the sport.........................

DUDE! you just don't get it do ya

there is nothing you can say that can validated your intentions

ripsessionkites - 31-12-2008 at 09:36 AM

Kitewing dealers in Argentina.

Surforfly.com
monte@surforfly.com

xeriotti - 31-12-2008 at 09:37 AM

Im not inventing anything....its been done before... lots of guys made their own wings... theres nothing wrong with that... if you dont want to help I dont mind, but dont drag with you all the guys whoŽve been in my same situation and want to give me a hand....

dylanj423 - 31-12-2008 at 09:47 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by xeriotti
Im not inventing anything....its been done before... lots of guys made their own wings... theres nothing wrong with that... if you dont want to help I dont mind, but dont drag with you all the guys whoŽve been in my same situation and want to give me a hand....


Maybe instead of asking for measurements of something that has been copyrighted, marketed, and professionally made, you should ask guys who HAVE built their own for pointers.

I can certainly understand that way of doing this... but as long as you are looking to benefit from someone else's product that is currently being marketed, I don't think you will be received well.

That kitewing looks pretty sweet... good luck building your own, I dont think it will be that hard to do- in a much more simple product anyway, but what do I know?

xeriotti - 31-12-2008 at 10:04 AM

I seen some #@%$#!ty wings made by guys around the net... before attempting my own design...i want to know the dimensions of a real wing...something that actually works...

I can make something "similar" but it may be too small or too large to weak, to heavy or maybe with a wrong geometry, that feels odd or something...

Im not intneding to make ANY profit of my homemade wing...just personal enjoyment and to try the sport... i dont want to kill my coiny pig to buy a 1400 dollars wing if i havnt tried it in my life....

dylanj423 - 31-12-2008 at 10:13 AM

The first thing to know with any DIY project, as you have seen, is that sometimes the result isnt quite what you want. There is always something that you can do better, or differently, or just plain doesnt work right.

I am going through something similar... but its all part of the fun. And it will be THAT much more rewarding in the end, when I get it where I want it. BTW, I am "fixing up" an older buggy to be ridable comfortably and safely while I save up money for a new buggy... our situations are very similar.

I have bought tools, invested time and money in finding out what I need to do differently. Embrace the task, seek the reward, and make your mistakes. You will get better, or give up trying.

It has given me a new appreciation for the guys that make their own well, and the guys that produce them on a commercial level. Our toys are expensive, and theres a reason for it. Try it yourself, and find out.

Seriously, it is fun... frustrating, but fun.

xeriotti - 31-12-2008 at 10:20 AM

Im a DIY guy.... my dad has a diesel injection workshop, full of tools... his hobby as I said before is experimental aviation...so DIYing can be breathed on the air over here.... I laminate my own skimboards (for me and friends) Im laminating right now some wakeskates, I made a pressable template out of wood.... this to be used with a scooter-engine winch.... with 250 meters of paragliding tow rope... for use in creeks lakes and everywheere you cant feet a boat or jet ski to tow you around....

My next project is building a kitewing... I want to try it...my dad told me... "Buy one" he always tell me so...and he is right... the guys at the kitewing factory have developed an excelent product and have passed across all the fails that my wing will have....

I like the feeling inside me when someone asks.. "where you bought that?" and I say... I made it... ;)

So... dont get mad about copyrights, sueing people, and stuff like that... its jsut about enjoying the wind, enjoying working on a project, and having fun....

lunchbox - 31-12-2008 at 10:20 AM

Quote:

I seen some #@%$#!ty wings made by guys around the net... before attempting my own design...i want to know the dimensions of a real wing...something that actually works...


Same goes with all original designs...I'm sure all companies in business would like to get a hold of someone else's designs (designs that work)...that way they wouldn't have to spend hundreds/thousands/millions of dollars in R&D. That's why there are copyright laws...

Not to be too harsh...but I think KS was right...you really don't get it...

I would bet that no one on this forum is going to provide you with the actual dimensions....everyone on here seems to be very ethical and I believe that someone who designs something that works, should not have there ideas 'stolen'...

BTW,,,it doesn't matter if some components are different, the owner of that copyright would still have a good case for a lawsuit.

Please let this topic die!!!!

xeriotti - 31-12-2008 at 10:25 AM

Ok... im unethical... if someone wants to help... just send me a Private Message...

There are way too much guys that work for the kitewing corp. :D

Bladerunner - 31-12-2008 at 10:29 AM

NPWfever has put together a home made kite wing. I think He is away for the holiday. Send Him a U2U and He may be able to help ?

I think He posted a picture of it at one time ? Maybe search his posts ??

NPWfever - 31-12-2008 at 10:50 AM

Back as of the 27th, and yes I made one, it cost me nothing, from a tent from my friends garbage. I used the aluminum poles from the frame, and sewed the nylon. She's 6m, no battons, no plans, no measurements, just a guess....and I get up and ride all the time. So, dude if your'e gonna do it, just go for it, make a triangley thing out of metal, cover it with fabric, and it will get you riding just as well. Hell, I've flown my wing off small hills....im 17 and pulled it off with a guess, something tells me that you could as well.

kiteNH - 31-12-2008 at 11:05 AM

I don't think its that big a deal to try to make your own wing. Trying to make an exact copy with the exact dimensions might not be legit but I don't see what the big deal with you trying to make your own wing is. You got into trouble when you asked for people to basically send you the kitewing measurements and design. If you scrap that idea and make your own then there isn't anything wrong with that.

People make their own buggies all the time and they do it in part by looking at what is already out there and borrowing ideas. I've never seen anyone tell them not to try to make a buggy and go buy one instead. And I don't see why your thread needs to "die" either.

And there no way he's going to get sued for making his own wing, even if its an exact $%(*$ replica unless he tries to sell it. Lawsuits cost $ and there aren't any damages to sue for unless he sells it. Suggestions that he'll get sued for making his own replica wing are laughable. :lol:

I don't think you'll get a lot of help on this forum though because I don't think there are many kite wing fliers. NPWfever is definitely a fellow DIY'er and should have some input for you though. (Edit: He beat to the post and I see that he does.)

flexiblade - 31-12-2008 at 11:23 AM

I agree with NPW - look at some designs - youtube - pics - and then make a reasonable guess at your design (which from your drawings look pretty well established and of good quality). Key thing here is to make your design adjustable - don't sew the wing material directly to the frame, try to use overlapping velcro that will "lock" it in but still be adaptable to get that comfy feel that your looking for. Experimenting with "your"design is much more rewarding than simply trying to make a copy of something already out there - who knows maybe doing your own design will help you figure out something different and better than the existing designs. Good luck to you in your endeavor.

xeriotti - 31-12-2008 at 11:36 AM

Ill make the sail first.... (the guys at the sail shop will sew it out of dacron and some monofilm) pretty much the geometry of a rage... pretty much the 4 meters of wingspan...the rest all calculations thru scaling.... then...once i have the sail...the rest is just bolting tubes together to make it assemble right

A few measures would be good... the Y-tubes, cross tubes and front tubes....just to figure out the real dimensions of what im doing...

dylanj423 - 31-12-2008 at 12:19 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by kiteNH Suggestions that he'll get sued for making his own replica wing are laughable. :lol:


Publishing someone elses work online would be a different story.

xeriotti - 31-12-2008 at 03:49 PM

I just want to build my kite... and maybe share my knowledge... still waiting for some help :(

NPWfever - 31-12-2008 at 05:50 PM

I don't want to be an ass, but I don't think your gonna get help...just do it man, make a metal triangle, put a sail on it, and ride.

Good luck!

xeriotti - 31-12-2008 at 06:47 PM

Selfish kitewingers :(

art_lessing - 2-1-2009 at 02:55 AM

so...here's the thing....a person invented this with his/her brain...so you can at least copy it with yours....figure two things out first....does 5.5 meters mean the area of the wing or the wing span.......I would personally go for the area, being 5.5m....then put this drawing of yours on a piece of graph paper and simply do the math to figure a 5.5m2 area.....that fits around your drawing .... or just eyeball it so its darn close..say one square equals one cm...then all the math will simply answer itself....and as far as the airfoil curve is concerned...thats aerodynamic calculus....don't concern yourself too much about it IMHO.....just dont make it too flat or too scoopy.... keep it in the average....most importantly ........just make the darn thing and report back and tell us everything you learned...thats like what buggy builders do...its fun to hear about a first trial run and the like...even it it doesn't work at all.....still you may come up with a better design than the rest.......


ramble
on
DQ

xeriotti - 2-1-2009 at 06:57 AM

Its called scaling...im doing it all the time, but you just cant scale some things.... because of the pics published on the internet arent perfectly flat or are taken with wide anfgle camera objectivos or things like that... if I had a picture, taken perfectly flat with a 50mm reflex camera lens... it would be supre easy.....

Ill do it the tough way...i already sent a aproximate plan of the sail to some guys who work repairing and building dacron and monofilm sails for yatching competition...they told me it could be done and im waiting for the price tag on it....
I checked the Argentinian website and the cheapest kitewing available is 2400 dollars...so forget about buying a real one ever... ill stick to R&D and spending some time and bux copying others people work.... No matter how much R&D it has on it... its still a piece of cloth tied to some tubes....

:D

furbowski - 2-1-2009 at 10:39 AM

Doing the my own math on airfoils is something I wouldn't have the slightest clue how to begin on! So agreed, a few measurements would sure help.

But eyeballing it doesn't mean that it's not going to work. Have you heard of the aqua skipper -- it's a human powered hydrofoil, and very expensive to buy, but quite possible to build:

http://www.instructables.com/id/DIY-Human-Powered-Hydrofoil-...

the guy here had basic foil information & numbers, granted --but for construction just eyeballed the foil sections, and found they worked just fine!

You've got good drawings, you'll be able to refine your numbers and foil sections with a bit of research -- surely there is some discussion of single skin foils on an obscure thread on a geeky hang - gliding forum somewhere????

But my point is, you don't have to get the foil section / curve exact for it to work, you can eyeball it with a reasonable expectation of success.

One thing is clear -- you don't give up easy! So do it the tough way, get that latin machismo up to speed to motivate you, and go for it!

xeriotti - 2-1-2009 at 12:31 PM

Ok... no much help from users... but ill go for it any ways... im planning the fabrication, assembly of the parts in my mind...to preview possible problems on building/buying/getting something...

All the tubing will be aircraft grade aluminum... bought in an aircraft spare supplier....

The "tips" of the tubes (the ones that hold the boom and front tubes together via a rope...and the endings of the front tubes that hold the extensions in place) all will be machined with a lathe from a piece of solid delrin or similar plastic material.

The rope front linkage... just that... 10cms of fancy dacron rope full of strenght and flashy colors...

Front tubes extensions made from tent-grade-elastic-poles with some decent strenght ribbons sew on the ends....

To link the front tubes, cross tube and the boom... ill make some stainless steel braces, then ill pake 2 slots to fit it into each plastic tube ending... a bolt a cross and im done....

The boom will have a special, own design pivotal linkage so i can vary the geometriy of the wing by sliding it forward or backwards...

the battons plain antenna aluminum tubing :D

Ill kee everyone posted.... and ill upload pics as soon as i start building something....

all i got for the moment are a bunch of messy papers and the head full of unuseful ideas :D

furbowski - 2-1-2009 at 12:52 PM

"all I got for the moment are a bunch of messy papers and the head full of unuseful ideas"

A: a bunch of messy papers is the first step in any decent project -- i kinda think that's how the wright brothers (world's first airplane) got their start!

B: the head full of unuseful ideas -- no way, jose! I've never played with kite wings, but I don't think any of them have variable geometry in their plans! variable geometry is the future of kites, have a look at flysurfer's psycho 4, as an example...

all IMHO, of course, but I'll be following this build closely!

you may want to start a new thread with your build reports, leave the negativity of this thread behind -- just me own two cents.

I'd wish you good luck, but I think you're well on the way to making your own.

flexiblade - 2-1-2009 at 02:53 PM

These 2 vids show that if these designs can generate pull then your design - even with any miscalculations should kick their a$$. Go for it man I'm rooting for you.

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=ImD8BsOITM0

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=hf8z4u8HTWQ

xeriotti - 3-1-2009 at 12:29 PM

I just got one doubt.... when a kitewing sail is perfectly extended on the ground.....is it flat, or its sewed concave/convex???

xeriotti - 3-1-2009 at 01:21 PM

Check this out... check the date... remove the "mast"

dylanj423 - 3-1-2009 at 03:40 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by xeriotti
I just got one doubt.... when a kitewing sail is perfectly extended on the ground.....is it flat, or its sewed concave/convex???


It looks to me like they are sewn curved. Concave from the fliers perspective. Seems like it would catch wind better, and be more of a wing when held parallel to the ground (for lift).

You got any buddies with tube kites down there? It looked to me like the leading edge of some inflatable kites I have seen.

xeriotti - 3-1-2009 at 05:45 PM

Its really complex, i had a lot of problems finding stuff to build the kitewings frame... but once i talked to the guy that will sew my sail... the problems duplicated instantly...hi brought lots words to my dictionary and with every word a new design problem to solve...

I suspected it was concave, but how much concave? if not constant how many stages? thru the wingspan or incresing/decreasing to the tips? this is going to drive me crazy... the frame is the easiest part now that ive noticed the basics of sail sewing...

furbowski - 3-1-2009 at 06:46 PM

I don't know anything about kite wings, although I've noticed a few in the sigs here on the forum. I used to race offshore, boats up to 70' and the sails were getting super high-tech!

But I do know windsurfer sails don't have much concavity in them, a lot of their curve is formed by the arc of the boom and regulated by the rope that tightens the corner furthest away from the mast. High winds = less curve, slightly depowered, the rope as tight as possible, holding the sail as tight as possible against the pressure of the wind. Low winds = more curve to maximize the power of the sail, so the rope on the corner is a bit looser, allowing the wind to push the sail out a bit so it has more curve.

The sail's deviation from the straight line is called the belly of the sail. I believe the maximum belly of the sail should be 8-14%.

For sailing, the point of maximum belly is 35-45% back from the leading edge of the sail. For windsurfing, the point of maximum belly is a little further forwards. A quick look at kitewings seems to have the maximum belly even further forwards. I reckon 25% would be too much.

The smoothness of curve in the sail is dictated by the number of individual panels. The more the panels, the higher the costs and the more precise your tolerances (less margin of error). A racing mainsail for a top-notch 60 footer will have more than 50 panels and cost more than $100,000 USD.

The point of maximum belly (in terms of how far back from the leading edge) is sewn into the sail, and is harder to change by playing with the rigging. The amount of belly (deviation from a perfectly flat plane -- the 8-14% I mention above) is a lot easier to change by playing with the rigging. The amount of belly is regulated not only by the curve sewn into the sail, but also by the tightness of the rig (dependent on the strength of the rigging -- too tight and you break the frame holding the sail), the amount of flex in the rig, amount of stretch in the sail material, and finally the amount of wind pressure you are dealing with.

In other words, you'll build / sew in about 4 % (high wind sails)-8 % (low wind sails) belly maximum, and the wind will push and stretch the sail out more, and you control that with the rigging. If your belly exceeds 12 to 16% (depending on your design) you'll start to induce more and more turbulence and drag, robbing you of available power.

The point of maximum belly back from the leading edge will be something you'll need to design into the sail, and you'll find that really hard to change after you have built your sail. The amount of belly, however, you'll be able to change with your rigging, so it's not so important to get it right, however, too much sewn in and you're screwed.

The more rigid the frame and the less stretch in the sail, the higher the costs due to the higher quality materials and engineering going into the rig and sails. The ultimate design goal is to have sails that have zero stretch (like perfect kite flying lines) due to the variances in wind pressure, but at the same time have perfectly controllable flex and curve by playing with the rigging and lines. The rigging itself can flex -- this helps with the control -- but needs to be controllable by the sailor and not by the wind pressure. At the same time, the wind pressure is what gives the sail its shape. It's impossible to see the curve of the sail without setting it to the wind.

so yeah, it's a complicated interweave of a whole bunch of factors. You'll have to compromise! Your head must be buzzing!

Your best entry point for ongoing research is likely windsurfing sites. If you speak french, they're the most extreme sailors and have far less respect for copyright than anglos... :evil:

Nice photo above, BTW. It's so old school nobody could possibly take offense! :frog: It's hard to tell because of the angle, but it looks like about 12-14% belly, about 30-35% back from the leading edge.

Don't take my numbers with out checking them, all my sail tech books (the best ones are translations from the french) are in Hong Kong, and I'm chilling out with my family here in snowy (yeeha!) B.C., Canada...

best of luck to ya!

xeriotti - 3-1-2009 at 06:52 PM

I must email the sail guy... :D this is getting out of control...

And what about a flat sail?... if theres lo-wind i can run it really loose to have some extra power, but if i want extra control (thats good if intending to FLY with the wing) i just tighten a few ropes and i got an almost flexless rig that copies the curve of the battens...

furbowski - 3-1-2009 at 08:05 PM

yeah, you're in the groove now...

ask your sail guy about the effects of adjusting tension on the battens, also you'll need to make a decision regarding batten material...

sounds like the simpler your keep your rig the quicker and cheaper you'll have something you can fly, and that will tell you how complicated you want your second design to be...:lol:

xeriotti - 4-1-2009 at 04:33 AM

Exactly...thats the point...i need a sail quick, easy and cheap to build... to learn how to properly control it... then i will obviously want another wing, smaller, bigger, carbon tubings, otrher sail materials and more radical, task-specific-shape...who knows..... but, right now i need a school wing that works allright for allround riding... im gonna use it primarly on water (but i got some wide shores by the river (and wind over here is always from the coast :D)

I was thinking about buying a 75 liter windsurf board... an change the strap position to be perectly balanced (in a windfurf board i guess they are way too much on the rear)

And for the land... i can build a dirtsurfer from bmx parts in one day... (im already thinking about a stainless steel frame, some 28 spoke bmx rims laced to sealed bearing hubs and a 200mm+ disc brake for the rear (dont know if its useful...but it looks killer :D)

Jaymz - 15-1-2009 at 11:07 PM

Looks like this guy went homemade on the cheap and used a tarp for a sail.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JarWgs5yfAo

furbowski - 16-1-2009 at 08:58 PM

looks like it bent during the testing...

NPWfever - 17-1-2009 at 08:40 PM

Heres link to mine:

http://www.powerkiteforum.com/viewthread.php?tid=6308&pa...

Like I said, tent tubes, and nylon from the rainfly, just make it man, I promise it will work :D

dylanj423 - 18-1-2009 at 09:40 AM

Hows the project coming along?