Power Kite Forum

harnesses and handles

pitpack - 20-11-2004 at 01:20 PM

Hey ya'll,

So it's official. I got the radsail 6m. It's my first kite (although I've flown my buddy's blade 6.6m breifly). I wanted to go for bigger because of the low winds we get here in Lake Louise, but after hearing all the warnings I'm gonna get used to this monster first. Now my question is can I fly this kite with a harness? Every time I see people kiteskiing they are using a bar... not handles. And although I've seen people using a harness and handles in some pictures, they were'nt skiing. Is a harness and handles doable when skiing? And how do I set it up? AND.. can I put a harness on a Radsail Pro 5m (2005).
Then I have to ask how does it work? I mean don't the handles want to squeeze in together if it's just a line conecting the 2? With a bar the lines are always at the same spot... connected to the ENDS of the bar. Aren't my hands and handles gonna want to smack together when the pull on my harness gets a little strong?
By the way, I know it's a big kite for a 1st timer, but I will be flying it in low winds to start off, and I have a friend who's going to help me out. But he doesn't know the answer to my question wither as he's only flown his blade on a bar. It looks to me though that there is more control on handles than bars, so I want know what I should do here. Even if I can put a harness on my radsail handles, am I going to want to go with a bar eventually anyways? Or should I just order a bar now?
Thanks for any info any of you have for me.
Pitters

BizB - 21-11-2004 at 11:44 AM

Wow, that is a big kite. Listen to your friend and don't get hurt.

I have a HQ Beamer 3.6 that I use for landboarding/snowboarding. The way I have it set up leaves much to be desired, but it works.

I currently have a "line" (about 24 inches) running between the handles (it's actually a chickenloop left over from my slingshot control-bar). When I hook into the harness with the chickenloop, the handles do want to cometogether and it makes controlling the kite a bit difficult, but it works. I'm going to switch to a control bar, soon. The way I'll do it is to run the steering lines to the ends of the bar and run both of the brake lines together through a hole in the middle of the bar. The brake lines will attach to a leash stapped to my wrist. This way, I can use the bar to steer the kite. And, if things get out of control, I can unhook/drop the bar and let the brake lines attached to my wrist bring the kite to a heap on the ground.

I'll still use my chicken loop to hook the bar to my harness.

I'd say order the bar, now.

flyinfreak - 19-4-2007 at 11:45 AM

yeah definitely order the bar

Kiteboarder2B - 19-4-2007 at 01:01 PM

BizB, check out Pablo's thread on a crossover setup for the bar. Use those brakes for steering too!

http://powerkiteforum.com/viewthread.php?tid=3107

PitPack- I'm no expert, but here's my experience

handles DO give you more control of the kite and will show you the "in's and out's" of the kite. Probably best to learn on handles and learn what kind of control you can get from it. While the handles do pull together when harnessed in, this is usually only worst when doing it with no hands. Otherwise your hands guide the handles apart naturally. Do not laaunch hooked in! Also, as it's your first kite you definitley need to learn how to fly if well before you harness in. Start in light winds and gradually, time by time, work your way up to higher winds until you feel the upper limits. Now you should be ready to harness in.

I flew on handles for two years before I ever harnessed in, no shame in that, and no shame in waiting a few weeks to really know your kite first too. As for skiing with handles, I can't say, but some people find the control with handles (in general) an acceptable trade off to the feel of bar, so learn with handles and you can always go to a bar if you like. I just recently went to a crossover bar setup and I really like it, but I am also really glad I flew on handles first.

Hope this helps somewhat.

Bladerunner - 19-4-2007 at 03:00 PM

WOW, Do you actually LIVE at Lake Louise or is this the place you plan to kite ?? I understand you can snowkite at Sunshine but didn't know about Louise ? Is it SNOWKITING that you plan to do ? If so You may want to look at depower for your next kite. It's better in the mountain winds.
I ride both with handles and bar. I think I prefer the cross over bar for Snow + for jumping. You can hook in with a " strop " ( rope between the tops of your handles). The thing I find worst is that I can't drop one hand when using handles and Kite Killers. The killers are too short. Riding on a bar hooked in is by far the most comfortable. 6.5 is VERY BIG for a starter kite. Sounds like you are sensible enough to start in low winds.

OOOPS... By the look of the post date Pit Pack has packet it in :smug:

PrairieWind - 20-4-2007 at 07:49 AM

There are some good videos of snowkiting with handles. Here is one entertaining one from Russia.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=QTvEXqAhSRw

There is a friend of mine who is in his 60's - he is retired and last year had 112 days on the snow and ice around Calgary and Canmore. He stays on the prairie lakes initially, then when they go he goes to Ghost Lake near Cochrane. When that goes, only then does he go to Spray Lakes above Canmore, maps at www.rockymountainkiting.com . He uses race foils on handles exclusively. He takes his backpack out on the lake with his quiver of kites - the kites range from 1.5m to 6m - when the conditions change he just rolls out a kite of the appropriate size.

If you go to Spray Lakes this time of year you will see him there. The ice should be good until Mid May. His last day on Spray last year was May 12th.

Your hands won't bang together using a harness with handles. The best spreader bar for use with handles is a reactor style bar - that uses a roller instead of a hook. The handle moves easily - you can ski with one hand on the "top" handle and easily control the kite. The friend I mentioned uses a custom made roller on the spreader bar that is a greater diameter than the one provided with a reactor bar - this so that the bigger pulley makes smaller movements of the handle into bigger movements with the kite.

His solution for the leash/kitekiller thing is to have long leaders on the handles (or extensions on the existing leaders) and have a leash attached to the right brake line a distance from the handles that is appropriate to the size of kites. For his 4m he has the leash attached 1.4 m from the end of the handle, the bigger the kite (spanwise) the longer the safe distance from the handle. With the leash attached in this manner the kite will just "flag" out if you have to let go. This way you can kite with the handles with one hand and not have your arms locked to the handles with the kite killers.


He'd given me a little lesson last summer - I wasn't paying as much attention to the leash - more to the kite. I thought that he attached the leash to the end of one handle - didn't know about leaders and that kind of thing. Talking to him about the leash he said that attaching a leash to the end of the handle will prevent the kite from getting away but can also make it a spinning propeller pulling even harder. After sufficient number of revolutions, the friction will make it uncontrollable even if one manages to grab the handles. It would be better to let go completely.

Make a small
overhand loop on the line at the right spot about 1 m from the handle, feed
the knotted end of the leash through the loop and work your knot tight. That
should do it. This would shorten one brake line a couple of cm which may
want to compensate for by adjusting the length on the other side. Not likely
that you will need to adjust power line if right to begin with.
Now if you ever make leaders make sure that you tie together
the leader and the leash in one knot to be grabbed by your brake line, and
not 2 separate knots !. Leash line should be long enough so that it will not
pull the brake in the most extreme position which - if the leash is
attached to the right side of your harness and to the right line - would be
when making a bottom turn with left hand. It ends up having to be about 1.5
m longer than the distance from your handle to the point of attachment. May
be a little less - depending on the length of your harness line. You do not
want it to be longer than necessary - otherwise you'll be tripping over it.
But now with the setup I suggest you can adjust that easily by moving your
attachment point on the brake line - that's nice...


The other thing worth mentioning is the attachment to your harness. Even with a proper leash there are a number of very unlikely but not impossible scenarios when you may want to let leash go and therefore it should be attached through a quick pull release system. WPI came up with a very simple system (though would be difficult to describe precisely) that uses a piece of cord and the same idea as your shoe laces knot.


I had cut and pasted some responses to questions that I'd asked him about his handle/leash set up in the preceding text.

If you want to buy handles that already have a strop, or want to buy a bar the closest place for you to get one would be through www.mullerwindsports.com - they are an ozone dealer/distributor that is based in Cochrane. They'd get it out to you quick on the greyhound.

kite skiing around calagary

nervanabike - 19-11-2007 at 02:09 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by PrairieWind
There are some good videos of snowkiting with handles. Here is one entertaining one from Russia.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=QTvEXqAhSRw
Hi I live SW of calgary, can you recommend any areas to kite ski
Thnx




There is a friend of mine who is in his 60's - he is retired and last year had 112 days on the snow and ice around Calgary and Canmore. He stays on the prairie lakes initially, then when they go he goes to Ghost Lake near Cochrane. When that goes, only then does he go to Spray Lakes above Canmore, maps at www.rockymountainkiting.com . He uses race foils on handles exclusively. He takes his backpack out on the lake with his quiver of kites - the kites range from 1.5m to 6m - when the conditions change he just rolls out a kite of the appropriate size.

If you go to Spray Lakes this time of year you will see him there. The ice should be good until Mid May. His last day on Spray last year was May 12th.

Your hands won't bang together using a harness with handles. The best spreader bar for use with handles is a reactor style bar - that uses a roller instead of a hook. The handle moves easily - you can ski with one hand on the "top" handle and easily control the kite. The friend I mentioned uses a custom made roller on the spreader bar that is a greater diameter than the one provided with a reactor bar - this so that the bigger pulley makes smaller movements of the handle into bigger movements with the kite.

His solution for the leash/kitekiller thing is to have long leaders on the handles (or extensions on the existing leaders) and have a leash attached to the right brake line a distance from the handles that is appropriate to the size of kites. For his 4m he has the leash attached 1.4 m from the end of the handle, the bigger the kite (spanwise) the longer the safe distance from the handle. With the leash attached in this manner the kite will just "flag" out if you have to let go. This way you can kite with the handles with one hand and not have your arms locked to the handles with the kite killers.


He'd given me a little lesson last summer - I wasn't paying as much attention to the leash - more to the kite. I thought that he attached the leash to the end of one handle - didn't know about leaders and that kind of thing. Talking to him about the leash he said that attaching a leash to the end of the handle will prevent the kite from getting away but can also make it a spinning propeller pulling even harder. After sufficient number of revolutions, the friction will make it uncontrollable even if one manages to grab the handles. It would be better to let go completely.

Make a small
overhand loop on the line at the right spot about 1 m from the handle, feed
the knotted end of the leash through the loop and work your knot tight. That
should do it. This would shorten one brake line a couple of cm which may
want to compensate for by adjusting the length on the other side. Not likely
that you will need to adjust power line if right to begin with.
Now if you ever make leaders make sure that you tie together
the leader and the leash in one knot to be grabbed by your brake line, and
not 2 separate knots !. Leash line should be long enough so that it will not
pull the brake in the most extreme position which - if the leash is
attached to the right side of your harness and to the right line - would be
when making a bottom turn with left hand. It ends up having to be about 1.5
m longer than the distance from your handle to the point of attachment. May
be a little less - depending on the length of your harness line. You do not
want it to be longer than necessary - otherwise you'll be tripping over it.
But now with the setup I suggest you can adjust that easily by moving your
attachment point on the brake line - that's nice...


The other thing worth mentioning is the attachment to your harness. Even with a proper leash there are a number of very unlikely but not impossible scenarios when you may want to let leash go and therefore it should be attached through a quick pull release system. WPI came up with a very simple system (though would be difficult to describe precisely) that uses a piece of cord and the same idea as your shoe laces knot.


I had cut and pasted some responses to questions that I'd asked him about his handle/leash set up in the preceding text.

If you want to buy handles that already have a strop, or want to buy a bar the closest place for you to get one would be through www.mullerwindsports.com - they are an ozone dealer/distributor that is based in Cochrane. They'd get it out to you quick on the greyhound.

B-Roc - 19-11-2007 at 03:29 PM

I kite ski with handles. I have a bar and I use it with my blade on good conditions but other than that, I'm 100% on handles.

A bar is nice as you can rid with one hand but not necessary and I appreciate the extra brake control the handles offer.

I ride my kites on the brakes so when I'm skiing with handles on a harness I use brake turns only and never really alter the position of the handles in front of me - just pull the brake in on the handle I'm turning and then back to neutral. In that way, I might as well be on a bar but I generally always have both hands on the handles because most of my kites require brake input and that's my preference for flying.

Pdxnebula - 19-11-2007 at 05:25 PM

I've only flown my RushII 250 on a bar & yet still find that a single handle for a 2 line kite just doesnt seem to give me enough of the control I need/want... Plus I may not even have much input on the topic because I only fly static, I think it still boils down to a matter of preference...

speleopower - 19-11-2007 at 08:28 PM

Kiteskiing/kitesurfing is no problem on handles. The handles do pull together a little but it's no problem at all. Handles also put your arms in a much more natural position.

You can ride with one hand no problem as well.

Learn on handles then if you must goto a bar.

Here is a picture of me kitesurfing on handles. I"m doing a toeside to heelside jump where I land riding backwards landing.

Scott

MVC-428S.JPG - 28kB

PrairieWind - 21-11-2007 at 07:45 PM

It is all a matter of preference, handles or bar. In the age of marketing some folks think a snowkite needs to have a bar.

Nervana bike - Check www.calgarykiteboarding.com for some location information. Also www.rockymountainkiting.com - I'd sent a U2U about some of that info a few days ago, check that...

canuck - 21-11-2007 at 09:04 PM

nervanabike, I sent you a U2U about Calgary SW

I find handles a lot better on the relatively small soccer fields- easier to manoeuver the kite. I think I'll stick with a bar out on a lake or open meadow.