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Phantom II???

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-mj- - 11-6-2009 at 06:48 AM

We are currently playing with the idea to make a second Phantom,
nothing concrete yet but via this way I would like to hear if there's interest in such a kite and what the improvements should be?
Graphic scheme?
Handling?
speed?

BeamerBob - 11-6-2009 at 07:26 AM

Judging by the second hand market for the now 5 year old Phantoms, I can't imagine it not being successful. With my limited experience with the Phantom, adding the launch assist tabs and moving the inflation zip from the center to both ends (for lighter wind inflation) would be a great update. Beyond that, see if the high A/R could benefit from design elements you've learned about through subsequent models like cell shape and count, vent number and size, vpc or not, etc.

The graphics on the Phantom are probably the most distinctive of any kite ever made in my opinion. You could manipulate it, but don't take away the scary guy.

Please do this.

rudeboysaude - 11-6-2009 at 07:38 AM

I think a Phantom II would appeal to buggiers. Have you had any sort of demand from other parts of the world? The people on this site seem to love the old Phantom. I used to own an 18M Phantom but got rid of it as soon as I flew the Venoms. For the type of kiting I do, they were just so much better. Another twin skin buggy kite would be great though if for no other reason to help grow the twin skin line. It's sad to see only one Twinskin in the line up, but when I thought about it, the Synergy was pretty much a one kite solution for me. It handles water, snow and land great and is better then another any other ARC I've owned.

But there were definatly alot of old Phantoms at NABX this year so maybe there is a market for them. I don't buggy enough to justify one but there are quite a few people here that do. If you do a re-run, I'd keep a similar cool graphic scheme. The Phantom was one of the coolest looking twinskins. As far as handling and speed... I think I'd keep it the exact same as the old Phantom. It seems that most of these people like exactly how the old one was. If you change it too much, I think you could stand the chance of losing the market of people that miss the phantom enough for it make a comeback. I'd keep the same kite, add some zippers on each end instead of the middle, some aluminum spars instead of the carbon and slap some new graphics on it and a new bar. Phantom II. Done.

acampbell - 11-6-2009 at 07:48 AM

This will be an interesting thread to watch.

Marijn, I do not have enough fly time on a Phanny to comment of flight characteristics, but the convenience features Bobby mentioned are an easy call, I think. As for the graphics, I think Mark Groshen's famous picture of Ziggy at NABX says it all.

One small thing, a revised shirt with the Phantom face on the back would be tres cool.

Ziggy_sunset-1.jpg - 35kB

action jackson - 11-6-2009 at 07:55 AM

Just add the zips on the larger ones, not needed on the 6m and 9m. I think that 67.8 with a phantom should speak loud enough! These kites provide the right power and confidence to break speed records.............aj

PHREERIDER - 11-6-2009 at 08:21 AM

no pulleys , simple always better

when i first worked with P15... i thought more intakes, but it was a water recovery thing compared to venoms.

discovery dusting off the old , to make new

fun

flyjump - 11-6-2009 at 08:44 AM

As long as it has the metal spars instead of the old carbon spars LOL. The 12 phantom was probably my favorite kite I've ever owned besides my 13 scorpion. It was fast, I can't imagine how fast it would be with vpc! thanks for considering bringing it back Marjin!

nwsurfwakeskate - 11-6-2009 at 09:10 AM

a Phantom II sounds like a great idea!

my wishlist would include:

launch assists

wing tip zips

optional pulley to reduce bar pressure

new colors but similar graphics

overpressure valves/flaps

small sizes available <10m

braided carbon spars instead of linear to reduce the risk of splitting

if there's any way to improve water relaunching I think it would be highly beneficial too. I'm not sure if a 5th line would ever help but it seems like it might be worth trying :eureka:

nwsurfwakeskate - 11-6-2009 at 09:17 AM

hey so I was just thinking.....has peter lynn ever tried inflatable spars on the wing tips? I know we kinda have a "no pump" policy when it comes to foils but I'm just thinking if there was only 2 struts they could be small, durable, easy to replace and probably wouldn't take more then 2 pumps each to inflate.

just an idea....probably a bad one but figured I'd throw it out there.

floating wingtips might make the water relaunch aspect easier too. maybe?

rudeboysaude - 11-6-2009 at 09:22 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by nwsurfwakeskate
if there's any way to improve water relaunching I think it would be highly beneficial too. I'm not sure if a 5th line would ever help but it seems like it might be worth trying :eureka:

I've done my fair share of water kiting with the Phantom.. Here's an old pic of my P18:

But in my opinion I don't know why someone would rather water kite with a phantom then a synergy. The fact that it's high aspect and long and skinny which makes the phantom great for the buggy doesn't make it great for water launching. If it was your only kite, it works, but there are much better ARCs for water and I don't think a Phantom II should focus on meeting that requirement. I'd make it excel at land and nothing else to offer distinct advantage over the other current twinskins.

awindofchange - 11-6-2009 at 12:23 PM

Quote:

I agree fully with this statement. If you do decide to go forward with the Phantom II, I would make it very land specific because competing with it on water would be a waste of time - mainly because of the Synergy and the new Charger which is pretty much water specific.

I would make it very high aspect ratio - something near the older F-Arc (what a machine), maybe include a couple more intake vents for easier/quicker inflation - unless of course that causes some problems with the internal pressures. Must have larger amounts of adjustments in both the wingtips as well as the center and must have VPC with as much depower as possible.

It would be great if you could make some in the smaller sizes, less than 10 meters but with the higher aspect ratio that may not be possible because of the loss of light wind performance. If you could have something that you could adjust for massive lift or massive speed then that would greatly appeal to both the land boarders (snow) and buggiers. For the buggy you don't want any lift at all, just speed. Kind of the opposite for land boarders.

Also for the land boarders, speed is not a necessity so even if the kite was slower, as long as it had massive lift and hang time without stalling (or at least very fast instant acceleration if it does stall) that would be optimal.

Another thing that would be great is if you could come up with some type of safety release system similar to the Ozone re-ride system. Maybe if the vents in the leading edge were full open without the valves and when you pulled the safety the kite would flap back on it's trailing edge while the bar stayed attached so it would minimize line tangles and make it easier to get going again. Also if you didn't need the internal pressure of the kite for flight, landing and launching the kite may be easier for the land use. This would obviously not work for the water but that would be what the Synergy and Charger are for.

Quite a tall order for you to start designing on but if you could get most if not all of these things covered then I feel it could really put a different face on land kiting as we know it today.

Just my opinions (and some crazy ideas) anyways.

geokite - 11-6-2009 at 05:21 PM

I agree with most of what people have wished for. But the one, IMO, huge change with the synergy was the shaped panels. The kite is so much tighter; the trailing edge doesn't look so much like a bunch of sausages, and the leading edge fabric is taunt. Incredibly easy inflation (once, in really light wind, I got a 10m Synergy inflated in flight with it ony being about 1/2 inflated on the ground). If these aspects of the synergy could be applied to the phantom, wow, that would be one great kite.

And, if the bridles were the correct length for a standard bar setup, that would be great. I hate having to tune my synergies by adding bottom leaders on the kite.

-mj- - 12-6-2009 at 08:27 AM

NABX was an eye opener with AJ and Ziggy doing mad speeds with it.
I myself didn't expect to see Twinskins used as buggy engines, but talking to different people made clear that there is some demand.
And then there is also the UK market where the Phantom is primarily used for landboarding and there the good ol phantom almost has a a cult status.

Thanks for the already helpful insights, keep em comin'

revpaul - 12-6-2009 at 09:33 AM

yeah. what Kent said sounds sweet and doesn't seem unreasonable.
i'd be real interested in PL PII if it had/did all that. i like the idea of smaller(high wind) sizes too.

tridude - 12-6-2009 at 04:06 PM

"build it, they will come"...................................... :lol:

:duh::duh:

tridude - 12-6-2009 at 04:24 PM

beef up the spar pockets and sticks, keep the original graphics, and put me down for a pre order on a 12m.......................................... :lol:

:duh::duh:

nwsurfwakeskate - 12-6-2009 at 04:43 PM

can you guys make the spars out of adamantium? I think this might be a good selling point :smilegrin:

macboy - 12-6-2009 at 09:50 PM

I'd be all over it. My Phantom 15 is the kite that took me to the skies for the first time and I'll never forget it (therefore I'm officially biased). The only issues I'd be critical of are the spar pockets that tend to weather, dry and split open as the kites age - I've repaired three pockets now, and the spars themselves which the alum might solve (all mine are carbon). Move the inflate zips to the tips and it's even more of a winner.

Curious how the Phannys compare to the Scorpions though - I thought the Scorp was the land based successor to the Phantom, no? Matters not. If I were the sort to buy a kite because of the graphics the Phantom would win hands down. As a bonus you get a free Halloween decoration ; )

Phantom1sm.jpg - 115kB

-mj- - 15-6-2009 at 05:05 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by nwsurfwakeskate
a Phantom II sounds like a great idea!

my wishlist would include:

launch assists
does the little velcro flap on the newer models help?

wing tip zips
placing zippers too close to the wingtip weakens the construction too much I think, since the wingtips often hit first in a crash.

optional pulley to reduce bar pressure
more pulleys? I´m not sure, more stuff on the barsystem makes things complicated I think.
I hope the new bar offers enough adjustment but I haven´t tried it yet so I´m anxious to report more info on the new design

new colors but similar graphics
I personally agree, let´s hope the majority feels the same way

overpressure valves/flaps
experimented with it, but how would you have these valves work at exactly the right time (of impact) and close them when job done?
small sizes available <10m
the range of sizes that we have now covers all the "kiteable" winds (6, 8, 10, 12, 15, 19 and 24mtrs) so we´ll most likely continue carrying about the same sizes

braided carbon spars instead of linear to reduce the risk of splitting
I think we´ll equip them with the current aluminium ones, unless we stumble upon a better option.

if there's any way to improve water relaunching I think it would be highly beneficial too. I'm not sure if a 5th line would ever help but it seems like it might be worth trying :eureka:

BeamerBob - 15-6-2009 at 08:10 PM

The request on the inflation zippers is I think to move them towards the end instead of being directly in the center which makes inflation lengthy in lighter winds. While already in the shop for a repair I moved my Phantom's zipper into the first black fabric cell such as on the venoms or synergy. Much easier inflation. I can post a picture if it will help. Launch assist tabs would be a big help if the wind is flopping the kite and you don't have a helper.

macboy - 17-6-2009 at 10:42 AM

So I was thinking about this a bit more and think one other thing that PL should be mindful of is setup / launch/ packup times and procedures. I was out at the lake yesterday watching some Flysurfers get unpacked, launched, ridden and packed away. The kites started in the small backpacks, launched as quick as the lines could be unrolled from the bars (yes, I agree the FS bridles can be a pain some times) and then packed up into the same size bag it came in.

I was reminded of one of the last light wind snowkite days here where I was waiting for the fill as I inserted the spars, attached the lines, zipped and unzipped etc. Meanwhile a Pulse 2 set up, launched and was already on a return tack while I was finally creeping skyward. Don't get me wrong - I LOVE the PLs and think that the pros far outweigh the cons. I just figured if you were asking I should say so.

PHREERIDER - 17-6-2009 at 11:44 AM

PL can be packed the same

-spars in
-lines attached
still have the fill and zip but quicker
i have unpacked walked out the lines and fill in <5min easy

macboy - 17-6-2009 at 10:03 PM

True enough Phree. My V16 has one piece spars and I just find it easier to leave 'em in since no matter how small I could pack the kite it'd still have long spars needing a home. Never did try rolling it all up leaving the lines attached......I'd guess it'd be much like rolling up the Psycho (lines around the bar to the kite, then bar wrapped up in the kite. Still, it's nice to have a small package....you know...for those lucky ones that get to hit the airport with their gear and in the back seat of the car.

Maybe they gotta go right back to their roots with the rocket launcher bag? They could likely make a rocket launcher backpack........I must admit - I don't mind the bag for the G10. Works for me AND if need be I can pack the kite, the bar, my wetsuit and booties and then I can buckle my harness around the bag. Sling it all over my shoulder and off I go.

arkay - 18-6-2009 at 12:01 AM

Quote:

BeamerBob
The graphics on the Phantom are probably the most distinctive of any kite ever made in my opinion. You could manipulate it, but don't take away the scary guy.

Amen. The graphics are very clean and distinctive. In all it's a beautiful kite. While I can imagine a few subtle tweaks to distinguish it, the base concept and execution are fantastic. Please keep the graphics presentation simple, elegant, and distinctive.

tridude - 23-6-2009 at 03:53 PM

MJ,

Have you, (Peter Lynn), made a decision on the Phantom IIs? Take a look at the forum, arcs have gained huge momentum with AJ and Phree leading the way. I say ride the wave and do it! :lol:

:duh::duh:

tridude - 23-6-2009 at 04:15 PM

and Carltb................sorry Carl........................................ :crazy:

awindofchange - 23-6-2009 at 05:52 PM

Marjin,

I think you should really look into the blow out valves for the PL kites. We have installed a couple blow out valves in the past and they are not really that difficult to do. Usually just a roll of material folded up inside the kite and attached with Velcro. These valves would be used for high pressure crashes and blow out to relieve the internal shockwave of pressure in the kite - to prevent blowing out a rib. Once the valves blew you would have to manually close the valve again....unless you used a system similar to the flysurfers with re-closeable flaps.

For water use this would be harder to implement just because you wouldn't want the blow out valve to engage and let water into the kite or make the kite unlaunchable....but for land use this wouldn't be an issue as the valve would need to be reset and then you could relaunch the kite again. I would much rather spend a couple minutes resetting the blow out valve than have to send the kite in for a major repair to a couple cells.

Just something to think about.

Bladerunner - 24-6-2009 at 06:37 AM

Good point Kent.

With P.L. being a mechanical engineer I expected the value of blow outs has been weighed already ?

I see them as an item that will drive the cost up and a bit of an extra. To be able to special order with blow outs installed would be nice but I would rather see the cost kept down ?

I wonder how many kites would be saved with blow outs ? I suppose the few times an arc actually crashes it is hard.

acampbell - 25-6-2009 at 11:44 AM

Whats all this about blow out valves?

Marijn was asking about a Phantom II, not the Phantom 2000, Mark 5, V2.4.5.6 rev.d (beta) :-)

I agree about the Aluminum sticks and launch assist tabs. These items are in production and don't need R&D

Having just flown the Phantom 18m in 4-5 mph winds, I'm not sure you even need to move the zippers. I opened the zip, inflated the downwind half, closed the zip, folded the downwind half over to push the air to the upwind half, opened the zip to re-fill the downwind half, closed zip and launched. 10 min. or less.

Besides, who is suddenly crashing ARCs so bad we need blow-out valves? About the only way you can do that is grab the wrong end of the bar by accident. Otherwise how can you crash a kite that auto-zeniths?. You guys getting senile?

All kidding aside, lets not throw any impediments to getting they Phanny back in production.

nwsurfwakeskate - 25-6-2009 at 12:11 PM

don't aluminum spars corrode and didn't there used to be a warning about using aluminum spars because they could break and damage the pockets?

just wondering if they were ever redesigned since everything I've ever read says stay away from using aluminum.

when I referred to pulleys to reduce bar pressure I meant on the kite not the bar. I think the synergy has something like this although I'm not sure exactly what its for, I assumed it was for bar pressure

Also I like the old rocketlauncher style bag idea too. I use one piece fiberglass spars in my phantom 12m and when I bought the kite it didn't come with the phantom bag instead it had an old S-Arc sail style bag. it allows me to keep the kite R2F with bar, lines, spars all hooked up and ready to go in a nice package.

acampbell - 25-6-2009 at 12:44 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by nwsurfwakeskate
don't aluminum spars corrode and didn't there used to be a warning about using aluminum spars because they could break and damage the pockets?

just wondering if they were ever redesigned since everything I've ever read says stay away from using aluminum.

Carbon can break and splinter. Aluminum sticks will bend or kink at the worst. Can be replaced with shock-corded tent poles trimmed to length with inexpensive tubing cutter. Aluminum CAN corrode over time esp with salt, but not a problem with a little care.

Only field mod. the aluminum sticks need is electrical tape around the end caps to keep them from coming off in the pockets.

Quote:

when I referred to pulleys to reduce bar pressure I meant on the kite not the bar. I think the synergy has something like this although I'm not sure exactly what its for, I assumed it was for bar pressure.

Could be an easily removable option to suit the rider

Quote:

Also I like the old rocketlauncher style bag idea too. I use one piece fiberglass spars in my phantom 12m and when I bought the kite it didn't come with the phantom bag instead it had an old S-Arc sail style bag. it allows me to keep the kite R2F with bar, lines, spars all hooked up and ready to go in a nice package.

The 18m Phanny I have has an expandable bag

tridude - 25-6-2009 at 05:32 PM

good call AC, crashing an arc is basically an intentional act............................in 12 to 18 mph winds, my 15m inflates in no more than 2 minutes.....the back pressure easily fills the upwind half nicely.......................again a great kite :lol:

:duh::duh:

Drewculous - 26-6-2009 at 10:52 AM

*pulls up a chair

this is really interesting, most things people would change seem pretty minimal and very easily implemented...

my 2 cents, put a graphic on the bottom of the kite too, no reason we shouldnt enjoy a cool design as much as the passer-byers

nwsurfwakeskate - 26-6-2009 at 02:13 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Drewculous
*pulls up a chair

this is really interesting, most things people would change seem pretty minimal and very easily implemented...

my 2 cents, put a graphic on the bottom of the kite too, no reason we shouldnt enjoy a cool design as much as the passer-byers

I second that!

Todd - 26-6-2009 at 02:26 PM

Drewculous GREAT idea! Please make this happen.

mougl - 26-6-2009 at 03:37 PM

I vote yes on the twin skin idea! :thumbup:

markite - 26-6-2009 at 05:23 PM

good call AC, crashing an arc is basically an intentional act....................

You'd think so, but I think it's at least a dozen or more that I've repaired. Some from impacts with objects causing large rips but the majority were burst cells. Most were straight forward bangs (sometimes not that hard either, just the right conditions) and others that people swore they never crashed but noticed a bulge while flying.
Sh_t happens. Even with them being great kites to train people on because of the auto zenith, every year from new purchasers to well seasoned pilots I'm doing repairs. Not sure what the best solution is. Even with blow out valves kites can still burst. The best thing is to have a way to minimize damage or direct it to an area that is easily repairable.

mgatc - 26-6-2009 at 07:26 PM

Quote:

You guys getting senile?

Hilarious!!! And, given the collective age of most kiters that I know, probably true:singing:

tridude - 27-6-2009 at 03:52 AM

sailkote to the zips and stix (aluminium) a couple times a month..........good to go

Kamikuza - 27-6-2009 at 04:55 AM

Include free zippers and I'm sold on just about anything ...

Drewculous - 7-7-2009 at 10:58 AM

so... -mj-
you have all you need...

Go forth and make everyone happy, with a new, nasty, Phantom II!! (make sure it has zippers, or there will be hell to pay, lol)

:smilegrin:

-mj- - 8-7-2009 at 01:32 AM

Okay, it looks like we need to do this, my guess now is that the Phantom II will be a "limited edition" with all the new features discussed here implemented.

Double graphics, I'd like to see that too but I think it's not gonna happen, costs more, tricky to get both skins to match exactly and the kite will weigh a bit more.

Blow out valves, thought about by the design team but not done, not sure why.

Pulleys, for all the good they do, they still should be optional, standard on the kite but easily removable.
they help reduce barpressure, make for faster steering, quicker turns but there are people out there that don't like them (maybe due to bad experiences with cheap ones, we use Ronstan pulleys on all kites)

Availability, I guess it will take at least 9 months to give birth to this idea.
I know that there are computer models made, but right now we are working on a lot of things already.

Thanks for everyones input so far.

Drewculous - 8-7-2009 at 11:36 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by -mj-
Double graphics, I'd like to see that too but I think it's not gonna happen, costs more, tricky to get both skins to match exactly and the kite will weigh a bit more.

As far as the double graphics, i dont think it would need to be an exact mirror of the top, just something besides white... The actual peter lynn logo is cool in itself(the swirly guy), even just like a black/white bottom with the logo in the color of the top skin (blue/yellow/orange/green or whatever the new scheme would be)
I would stay away from a full text display of "Peter Lynn" spanning 30' from one end to the other, but something underneath would be an improvement...
maybe some phantom 'teeth' on the edges that come in only a few cells?

at any rate the 2nd gen is bound to be amazing, PL makes a hell of a kite!

macboy - 8-7-2009 at 02:11 PM

You've got a pile of people panting....better not make it too limited of an edition ; )

I call dibs! One of each please. I'll deal with the wife :lol:

tridude - 8-7-2009 at 02:12 PM

again..............................

build it they will come......................................... :lol:

:duh::duh:

tridude - 8-7-2009 at 02:12 PM

Im in for a 12m....................................... :lol:

:duh::duh:

Bladerunner - 9-7-2009 at 06:26 AM

This is very interesting !

I HAVE to get some time in on the original Phanny !

Rip', Please bring ours out on Sat. !
:Ange09:

dylanj423 - 9-7-2009 at 06:40 AM

glad to hear aboutthe re-release! i will have to start saving double time now.... first some vapors, then a 9m phanny!

BeamerBob - 9-7-2009 at 06:46 AM

I'll be having an 18 please. :wee:

mougl - 9-7-2009 at 08:01 AM

9 months to make it happen....

YES! Plenty of time to save for a couple!

D'Arc side, here I come!

BeamerBob - 1-4-2010 at 06:45 AM

A poster on Arcusers forum said the Phantom II is confirmed

Sizes will be 6,8,10,13,16,20 & possibly a 30Meter low wind monster. Anyone seen one of these out at NABX?

They speculated on a Christmas release.

tridude - 1-4-2010 at 06:56 AM

winter/spring winds with a 13 should be alota fun in these parts.....................Angus put me on the pre-order list...........................these kites are so fun on water since they fly so far forward in the window i.e. Speed/Speed 2 and because technically they werent designed for water...................the 15 Phanny on water was sweet.........never flew it on land...... :smilegrin:

so what are the new design features on the 2.......more cells, VPC, tip zips?

pbc - 1-4-2010 at 07:09 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by tridude
...
so what are the new design features on the 2.......more cells, VPC, tip zips?

In the larger models they're using a carbon fiber skin and spars made with nano-tube technology. It's the same tech used in high performance sails. It's the only way they could get the light wind performance down to 2 knots of wind.

I just hope they use this in the mid size kites--say the 10, 13 and 16 sizes. On good surfaces like dry lake or hard-pack beach they'd generate enough power to go. It would really extend the wind range of the kite.

Philip

tridude - 1-4-2010 at 07:55 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by pbc

Quote:

Originally posted by tridude
...
so what are the new design features on the 2.......more cells, VPC, tip zips?

will this kite be afforadable with carbon skin..........................this is kiting not Americas Cup..................

indigo_wolf - 1-4-2010 at 09:14 AM

Just for clarification: Carbon fiber or cuben fiber?

ATB,
Sam

Todd - 1-4-2010 at 10:14 AM

I would be very interested in a 30m :smilegrin:

indigo_wolf - 1-4-2010 at 11:09 AM

As a kite or a summer guest house? :o

ATB,
Sam

pbc - 1-4-2010 at 11:09 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by indigo_wolf
Just for clarification: Carbon fiber or cuben fiber?

ATB,
Sam

Vlieger Op was not able to use that technology due to North Sails' exclusive license.

Philip

Todd - 1-4-2010 at 11:22 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by indigo_wolf
As a kite or a summer guest house? :o

ATB,
Sam

Both! Coming soon in a video to be placed in the kite boating section.

tridude - 1-4-2010 at 11:56 AM

I thought cuben fiber was Bests baby.....................regardless I hope they keep prices in the affordable range................if PL were to head down the path of the SA2/S3 via canopy materials, I for one would not be interested.......................

indigo_wolf - 1-4-2010 at 12:17 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by pbc
Vlieger Op was not able to use that technology due to North Sails' exclusive license.

Moot point I expect, but that's kind of interesting as I believe Windfire Designs uses cuben fiber in some of their kites (not foils).

PX would be interesting for the rods.

ATB,
Sam

AD72 - 1-4-2010 at 01:27 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by BeamerBob
A poster on Arcusers forum said the Phantom II is confirmed

Sizes will be 6,8,10,13,16,20 & possibly a 30Meter low wind monster. Anyone seen one of these out at NABX?

They speculated on a Christmas release.

30M? April fools? That would be one scary Phantom.

InvertedForce - 1-4-2010 at 01:37 PM

Gotta be April Fools joke.

Its not nice to play dirty tricks about new kites... :mad:

acampbell - 1-4-2010 at 05:13 PM

Would make a nice event tent

acampbell - 1-4-2010 at 05:52 PM

Bobby arrived at NABX this afternoon. I am going to have him hunt down Marijn and make him talk. Bobby is a big strapping boy...

pbc - 1-4-2010 at 06:31 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by acampbell
Bobby arrived at NABX this afternoon. I am going to have him hunt down Marijn and make him talk. Bobby is a big strapping boy...

But Bobby is devious because he only relayed part of the message from Arcusers. Does no one check sources anymore?

I thought it was an inspired joke.

Philip

ripsessionkites - 1-4-2010 at 10:29 PM

tomorrow im taking out the Phantom II for a test run. there are two available right now at NABX

i will report back later

herc - 2-4-2010 at 04:36 AM

ok. today is the 02.04. can we stop possible april jokes and say something about the promised "new kite" at nabx ? is it a phantom II? or the first (opencell) bridled depower kite from PL ?

pbc - 2-4-2010 at 05:52 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by herc
ok. today is the 02.04. can we stop possible april jokes and say something about the promised "new kite" at nabx ? is it a phantom II? or the first (opencell) bridled depower kite from PL ?

We'll everything I said--save for my previous message--was a fabrication. I got nothin'.

Philip

acampbell - 2-4-2010 at 08:06 AM

Just talked to Bobby. He met Marijn last night and he has some Phanny II's with him. Bobby will try for a run with one if the line is not too long. Sounds like Marijn has not even seen them yet, as he got them back from the first testers and had to throw them in to the shipping crate bound for NABX. He will get Pics at any rate.

Bobby says he showed up yesterday afternoon and was credited with bringing winds, as it piped up from nothing to 10 mph and they all got some good runs. He was running the Montana V 9.5 and had speeds in the 30's, catching up to anyone he wanted except for the Dutch with the Vapors.

rudeboysaude - 2-4-2010 at 08:37 AM

I can't say for certain.. But I bet it looks alot like this:

What sizes do they have with at NABX?

acampbell - 2-4-2010 at 08:44 AM

I THINK Bobby said 8, 10, 12 but can't be sure. I'm sure the news will break soon enough...

herc - 2-4-2010 at 08:54 AM

@rudeboy: the kite in your picture doesnt look like an high aspect ratio kite .. is the new phantom less stretched ?

rudeboysaude - 2-4-2010 at 11:30 AM

If this kite is indeed the next "Phantom" I think it seems alot different then what the old one was like. I've haven't flown it, only saw it flown and heard feedback from the guy who does fly it. I think it's still fairly high aspect. More so then the Chargers at least. And unlike the old phantoms, this thing turns FAST! I guess if PL is demoing it at NABX, Feyd might be able to say more about it now? He's the guy with the time on it and I remember him using the words.. "I'd kill for a quiver of these." I think he might actually KILL for them he liked it that much. I think if people are expecting a re-release of the same old Phantom though, it might not be that. Sure didn't look like an old phantom to me. I took a bunch of other photos to send to Pepijn of the kite in action, maybe it's ok for me to post more of them if it's being publicly demoed now. There will certainly be lots of photos of it from NABX soon I'm sure...

acampbell - 2-4-2010 at 11:33 AM

Bobby told me he asked Marijn and yeah, it's OK to talk it up. Out of the closet, so show it all and spill the beans...

rudeboysaude - 2-4-2010 at 11:43 AM

OK.. If Marijn says its ok.. then here are a few more pics:

http://www.mnadventure.com/images/IMG_2548.JPG

http://www.mnadventure.com/images/IMG_2550.JPG

http://www.mnadventure.com/images/IMG_2551.JPG

Those are probably some of the better close up pics I got of the profile.

herc - 2-4-2010 at 01:03 PM

cool! thanks for the pictures! very interesting. air inlets seem to be improved? somehow long and narrow..

Bump

AD72 - 29-6-2010 at 10:47 PM

Any word on a release?

acampbell - 30-6-2010 at 11:08 AM

Last I heard, end of year was a reasonable expectation, but they are working hard to get it right, so they will wait until they are all happy.

Kamikuza - 30-6-2010 at 05:57 PM

That's not a Phantom - it's a Synergy on a diet

borntofli - 30-6-2010 at 06:04 PM

A synergy on a diet taking ampthetamines....

pbc - 30-6-2010 at 06:23 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by borntofli
A synergy on a diet taking ampthetamines....

The uppers will make you thinner. Let's just hope it's not a case of "live fast, die young".

Philip

herc - 1-7-2010 at 02:18 AM

on the foildesign mailing list they say that the aspect ratio is still the key to highest performance per squaremeter. so the new phantom should have at least the same aspect ratio, or even better the same projected (!!) aspect ratio as the flysurfer speed 3. that would be cool ! if it will have, and then turn faster than the speed3, that would be AWESOME !
so there must/should be some new innovation regarding the problem of inverts and bowties. if that could be solved (diagonal cell ribs ? even higher internal pressure as with charger? thin, very flexible spars inside the kite? a thin internal tube to be pumped that gives some basic rigidity (blasphemy ;-) ) ? ... )

how was it back in the day with the f-arc? had it uber-performance, besides its difficult handling ?

www.peterlynnkites.com/news/0112news.htm

Quote:

F Arcs are high aspect ratio- the 1500/9.5 is 7.5, the 1200/7.5 is 6.5 and the 950/6.0, will be 5.5. They have more de-power than any previous kite we've produced. They are better upwind than any kite we've ever made before, maybe than any kite anywhere. They jump VERY well, especially hang time- hence the name. They are very gust responsive and exceptionally luff resistant. But, F Arcs are not for bunnies*: Their pre-inflated flying is not as easy as for the standard Arc range. Their water relaunch is not as reliable- especially the 1500/9.5. It can develop a twist when nose down in light winds which is difficult to get out. And -bunnies are not birds.

lad - 1-7-2010 at 04:44 AM

not for bunnies*
And -bunnies are not birds.

acampbell - 1-7-2010 at 04:46 AM

The farther they depart from the original design, besides moving the zips and other minor convenience features, the greater the risk of disappointment. I too would be suspicious of a lower A/R kite. It's theirs to screw up and it should not be hard (to succeed), but these are the same guys that took the Synergy, the last ARC with autozenith, off the market...

lad - 1-7-2010 at 06:52 AM

Looks like faster turning is a priority for the PII...

Lynn himself said he particularly likes the park-n ride-with-eyes-off aspect of the original Phanny....

Whether he has any input into the final PII design............?

Bladerunner - 1-7-2010 at 09:55 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by acampbell
The farther they depart from the original design, besides moving the zips and other minor convenience features, the greater the risk of disappointment. I too would be suspicious of a lower A/R kite. It's theirs to screw up and it should not be hard (to succeed), but these are the same guys that took the Synergy, the last ARC with autozenith, off the market...

That's my thinking ! :thumbup:

Possibly the best combo I could think of is the hands free , park and ride quality of the Syn' combined with the adjustable stopper on the Newer bars. The Charger feels like a step away from that ?

How big would an Phanny have to be to equal a 19m Speed 3 in projected area ? :wow:

Is there some reason they can't bring back the Syn's design pretty much unaltered ?

Kamikuza - 1-7-2010 at 05:34 PM

I see a small business opportunity for a little boutique making old-school custom arcs to order ... I'll have an 18m Phantom in black and pink with the graphic on the inside, please!

lad - 1-7-2010 at 05:53 PM

Isn't that is sort'a what Vieglers is doing already? If they had no original P plans to start with, they are just hand assembling the prototypes from scratch?

Kamikuza - 1-7-2010 at 05:58 PM

Without unpicking and making diagrams of an original Phantom it seems ... that proto just looks like a high AR Synergy to me ...

herc - 2-7-2010 at 11:28 AM

if it was a HIGH aspect ratio synergy with LOTS of cells and diagonal ribs aka modern paragliders for more stability, that would be totally ok and cool. but the prototype looks like a rather low aspect ratio - lower than the scorpion for example...

teklife - 6-7-2010 at 09:06 PM

sorry if this has been covered already. as i was reading along, i had to add my 2¢ when i came across it. hope this makes the cut.

"Double graphics, I'd like to see that too but I think it's not gonna happen, costs more, tricky to get both skins to match exactly and the kite will weigh a bit more."

most kite graphics SUCK; however, the phantom was the coolest looking kite ever, imho. nevertheless, even though i fancy good graphics, i would prefer the opposite, and have the whole top and bottom skin be a single piece of fabric for the best, weight, water repelling, aerodynamics, and durability. simple, bad ass kite, with some silk screened eyes. what else could convey that flying phantom look?

better weight, durability, aerodynamics, and cost, etc. for me, outweigh any bull#@%$#! graphic.

ssameer (mykl) :thumbup:

herc - 7-7-2010 at 02:43 AM

fully agree !
stop doing that sewing and gluing of kite fabric panels just to do some graphics.. all that makes the kite more expensive, probably drastically increases and accumulates inaccuracies, adds weak spots that might burst in crashes and makes the kite less air-tight.

PHREERIDER - 7-7-2010 at 06:33 AM

i am biased and really think the venom series really expresses functional beauty.

its made into the unit, not just a crumbling graphic. i see enough scribbling on tube kites and they turn into missing pieces. the wing tip printing i feel could really be dropped .

the shadow cast images on the venomphantom series from pilot POV is mastery of multidimensional functional art.

not only are they ultra unique in design and performance. they have a visual distinction above the rest.

yellow.jpeg - 27kB

PHREERIDER - 7-7-2010 at 06:40 AM

chilled version

blue.jpeg - 17kB

teklife - 12-4-2011 at 03:25 AM

wow, that blue and white one is nice! never seen that color scheme.

i'm still for the pII to be a solid color, single skin, with some big, silk screened on phantom eyes... nothing else.

what's up with that kite? is it coming or not?

pokitetrash - 12-4-2011 at 04:28 AM

I like looking at the kite in flight -that's a big part of my session experience -- the beauty of the flying kite. I'm driven by good performance too, but I've bought kites just because they look really cool in flight. I LOVE the Phantom Phace (sorry Phree, I've picked up your dialect a bit...:smug:and I would love to see the print on both sides. I'm with Phree with the fact that printed graphics dont hold up. Lets face it, a new PL Arc is gonna cost some jack no matter what and most of us arc users will pay for it with or without the expense of the added graphics. I say engineer the thing with the graphics sewn in as a skin and not on top of the skin to keep the weight down.

acampbell - 12-4-2011 at 04:56 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by teklife
sorry if this has been covered already. as i was reading along, i had to add my 2¢ when i came across it. hope this makes the cut.

"Double graphics, I'd like to see that too but I think it's not gonna happen, costs more, tricky to get both skins to match exactly and the kite will weigh a bit more."

most kite graphics SUCK; however, the phantom was the coolest looking kite ever, imho. nevertheless, even though i fancy good graphics, i would prefer the opposite, and have the whole top and bottom skin be a single piece of fabric for the best, weight, water repelling, aerodynamics, and durability. simple, bad ass kite, with some silk screened eyes. what else could convey that flying phantom look?

better weight, durability, aerodynamics, and cost, etc. for me, outweigh any bull#@%$#! graphic.

ssameer (mykl) :thumbup:

Nothing personal but I am glad you are not designing the Phantom II. There is a lot to be said for the sight of the Phantom face racing above the dunes at 20- 30- 40 mph and I agree with Phree and Pokite that the artwork is a big part of the experience. I flew the blank prototype at NABX and was pleased beyond expectations. It was very fast and almost too quick to turn with the VPC for my tastes, but that very property enabled me to fly the kite in low winds that would not otherwise support a 9m arc. So they will deliver with the choice of flying with the VPC or plain pigtails to chill it out. Nice to have the option. I think it will support the slight added weight of sewn graphic panels and the original Phanny has not proved to be too weak.

Last I heard from -mj- is that they will not incorporate the original graphics but strive for something playfully sinister and cool (my choice of words and interpretation).

They say 4th qtr 2011 but I have to guess that 1st qtr 2012 is more realistic based on past releases.

Feyd - 13-4-2011 at 05:09 AM

Sorry I haven't been paying much attention to what's been transpiring lately on PKF but the season is windinng down here in New England. The ice/snow riding is awesome right now but not long for this world so I haven't been paying attention to anything but weather and riding with just one more week of riding here before we have to stat doing long drives.

I may have posted this before but given the current discussion I've been told it's worth revisting. Footage of my first flight a season or two back on the 9m in winds about 10mph (don't let the sound of the wind fool you) with deep snow. As mentioned in this thread what it lacks in size it makes up in turn rate to build power. I've been riding the protos almost exclusively this winter.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H-SYGs-LQdE

If you go to my Youtube page you'll find footage of 12 and 15m (Black and Red)

Bladerunner - 13-4-2011 at 06:32 AM

Something I don't understand about R+D ?

The same kite seems to have been out on trail for over a year now it seems? That fits the R part . Is D done ?

Same with the Charger ? I demo'd one almost a full year before they came out.

Is a whole lot of the delay just a matter of getting the kites produced?

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