You buy anything new as soon as its in your possesion its worth considerably less, I dont want to be part of the argument but if I had something I didn't like or didn't work for me I get the hell rid of it

Quote:

Originally posted by pigryder You buy anything new as soon as its in your possesion its worth considerably less

Yes, especially when the product does not perform up to specification.

Especially when the shortfall is safety related.

Maybe HQ would prefer the industry be regulated by a gooberment agency such as the NTSB with mandatory safety recalls?

All it will take is one serious, highly publicized, equipment failure related accident.

If industry vendors can't regulate themselves, then gooberment bureaucrats are always happy to oblige and fill the regulatory void.

Quote:

Originally posted by pigryder :eureka: thephantom why dont you just sell the kite for 100 bucks and be done with it? I know I'm tired of hearing about it.......

sure you want it?, i see your in the market for one...... just kidding, i would not sell it even to you.

If you are tired of hearing about it... it means its does not apply to you, so.... this is a forum .. right?

If feedback improves the product, raises the standards and informs the consumer, i would far rather say so, its my right - and yours to ignore me.

What information are you talking about? As a Psycho 1, 2 and 3 registered owner I sure didnt get anything. I looked through all the service archives and documents on the flysurfer site and couldnt find what you mentioned.The only upgrade I have seen offered is when they make a line or connector available that has been shown to break in real world use. I do remember a specific dealer offering upgrades because i had them convert my P3 but that was not through Flysurfer the company. There is no failure in the Neo1 , there are 100s of happy users who still have the kite. I still personally buggy with my 8m. I have seen newbies fly the kite successfully after a day of training with a trainer kite. Sure everything improves as a model changes.It will again next year I am sure. We at HQ are very open to all input both positive and negative and want to hear it all so that the products can develop and improve.

What 4 Aliases are you talking about ? Prior to July of 2009 I did not work for HQ and was Kter Guy on the forum. When i started working for the company I changed it to HQkiter and have stated in several previous posts that I work for HQ. Am i supposed to take out a full page ad in the New York Times?I have listed my phone,name and email contacts several times . Phantom

Finally , yes wolf it would be a great market for repair facilities to offer an upgrade service just like they did for flysurfer. Again that was a dealer not the manufacturer that offered that service. Since the demand seems to be there, go for it.
I am confused that you have never heard of IKO in terms of land based kite training. They just finished an instructor training course in CO for snowkiting and will be holding another at the Superfly Open at Powder Mountain in march. They also so have specific guidelines and skill level certification for landkiting that have been in place for years. Every PASA certified school in the country must teach powerkite training as their first lesson. Most schools finish up that training session with a demonstration of how to use those new skills in the buggy or on the landboard. I know that all my students get in a buggy and on a landboard before they get near the water. The skills you learn on land make learning on water much easier.

Anyone who recommends a beginner get a depower foil as their first kite instead of a trainer kite confuses me. Over and over again I have seen student progress safely by practicing with a trainer kite even to the point of riding a buggy, landboard,snowboard or skis on ground or packed snow with that 3M trainer without the issues involved with strapping on a harness and hooking in. Learn to walk before you run and you will avoid all the common mistakes. To all the forum users who have contacted me about how great their Neo1 was and are confused by this thread , thank you.

I didn't say I did not hear about them but admit I have not looked at their site in years. When I did visit their site there is nothing still really available in Canada other than Quebec. They like most seem to be more water based but did see the basic ground course (very basic) they offer and snow kiting. PASA has nothing available that I could find in Canada and again water based.

Quote:

Originally posted by HQkiter We at HQ are very open to all input both positive and negative and want to hear it all so that the products can develop and improve.

Great here is your opportunity to shine then is it not?

If you read my posts you will see a history of enthusiasm and support for the product. Then after using the product for some time, it began to fail for me. This is not operator error this is failure of the product.

Its my opinion and the forum gives me an opportunity to voice it.

No I dont work for OZONE, FLYSURFER or any other kite company, im a consumer, the bottom of the heap really it seems. I just pay for it based on trust.

My experience with the NEO1 is that it fails to land safely in winds over 15 mph. That is backed up by other posts on this and other forums and interestingly is confirmed by your own dealer network as a problem [on this forum]

I had also failures with chicken loop and deteriorating lines.

Im not alone, on the HQ forum there is some poor other soul in the same boat !!!

http://www.invento-hq.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=1639...

So im done too discussing this, at your 145lbs you dont worry me none .

And for the record, i went back and purchased a best Kahona 13.5, best damn kite i have ever owned .

Would i use the NEO again, sure i have said plenty of times great kite, lousy features.
Would I buy a NEO 2 - suprisingly YES as it appears to be sorted in its weaknesses

Why not post up the line plan and some pics of the reinforcing required to upgrade and i will do it myself at no cost to you or HQ. Then I will use it.

I note that Angus has mentioned he was going to do some research and perhaps get a possibility of a modification. Now thats customer service and a person who has the best interests of the consumer at heart.

Instead of acting like a 5 year old, why do you not lead by example and get on top of it.

I would pay out of my own pocket to have these things modified.

Is that not what its all about proactive input. You really need to get some PR help.

And sorry its 3 alias on here and 1 on foilzone, my mistake.

Interesting points of view above.
I have had a Neo 11m for over a year and a 6m for about a year. Landing in a strong wind is not usually a prob tho if someone is there to catch I will use them.
I land it at very edge of the wind window, and grab the break line. The kite lies flat on the ground and I walk up to it while holding tension on the break line (left line if landing to the left). This is the same technique I use on my Ozone kites if the wind is too strong. The advantage of the Neo is it does not flap around like the Ozone once it is down and is easy to initially get to and hold. (In light to moderate I have got lazy and use the breaks straight downwind and walk to the kite while holding tension on both lines - not recommended!) (My packing up is easier now after a pointer from Angus in another thread.)
Under 10 knots the 11m has plenty of speed for the buggy. Although I am still learning to kitesurf the 11m works well from 12-18knots. As I get better I think it will be ok to 20 knots (I am only 68kg). I use it on the second set of knots on the main lines (handle end).
I did not like the original chicken loop and replaced them with Ozone Megatron loops.

I think fodeneyo reflects well the input I have received from most Neo users.
Phantom has a legit point though and when the Neo2 first came out several of our team riders looked into modifying their neo 1s so they could use the new flagging system as a backup . As of this point I have not seen a successful refit... will look at it again though and am willing to try it on my own neo 1 8m and since I can lay both kites out side by side would be glad to shoot some photos and see if anyone has suggestions. The issue seems to be the weight of the reinforcement needed to attach the flagging line to is changing the way the kite flys.
On a separate note I have a team rider who removed the new flagging system from his Neo2 to make the kite loop faster . He says he is so used to flagging the Neo1 like fondeneyo describes that he would rather do that with the 2 as well and without the flagging line he can loop the kite faster. This is also the same guy who loves a 1:1 bar with pulleys at the bar and 17m lines for riding strapless on a surfboard with his Neo. What will they think of next?

I apologize in advance for supporting the hijack.

My first "real" kites were the 8m and 11m Neo. I decided on these for a number of reasons, but mainly because I liked the idea of a multi-use kite and I wanted to keep my quiver a reasonable size. (OK, I have failed miserably on the latter)

Yes, I read the previously mentioned "review/marketing pitch" of the Neo on this forum and this certainly had an influence on me. I followed up by making quite a few phone calls with questions on the Neos' to Angus of Coastal Wind Sports. Angus had direct, hands-on, knowledge of the kite and he provided me with a spot on assessment.

I learned how to kite on these two sails. Were they perfect? No. Is any kite perfect? Probably not. These kites have a lot of good qualities. Light wind capability (certainly not 4 kts! Kind of like advertising a knife that "never needs sharpening") grunt, ability to go high upwind, ease of layout and launch, and ease of landing under "normal" conditions.

There are two distinct negatives that I have found with the kites. The tendency of both the 8m & 11m to overfly the window at the zenith. This is exacerbated in inland, gusty winds. This can be mitigated however by keeping the kite moving side to side at the zenith and/or adding power. Adapting to this is just part of the learning curve of any new sail in my opinion and it speaks to kites ability to stay at the edge of the window.

The most significant negative is the aforementioned issues of landing the kite in higher winds. I will say that the kite has never failed to fall immediately to the ground when I have pulled the release. The problems occur after this when the kite remains fully inflated and bounces up and down with a considerable amount of force. I almost always kite with someone else and will normally have them unzip the deflate zipper which quickly makes the kite manageable. I have not tried landing nose down or pulling in a side line to make the kite flag out. These sound like reasonable accomodations that I will experiment with. Admittedly, this would have been nice to know from the onset and would have been part of the learning curve.This sounds kind of like back-stalling to land a PL. It pulls like a horse until you grab a side line and walk toward the kite to flag it.

This landing issue has much greater consequences when using the kite on water. If you pull the release, you are going downwind. Period. Only option in anything other than an on-shore wind, cut loose and swim. I find having only one "out" to be unacceptable and therefore, do not use or recommend using the kite on water under certain wind conditions. I am not saying that the kite cannot be used on water. As with any kite, you should know the tendencies/limitations of the kite you are using and factor these into the decision of whether or not to fly.

Do I think that I have been screwed over by HQ because the kite won't fly at the advertised bottom end of the range or because it should not be used on water under certain conditions? No I do not. First of all, I did what I consider adequate due diligence before deciding to purchase a Neo. Secondly, not many kites fly at their advertised bottom end and the ones that do don't fly very well. Third, despite not using the kite on the water, I have had many hours of fun, safe, kiting using the Neos' on the ATB and the buggy. Am I stuck with a lemon? I don't think so. I believe that I can sell this kite with a clear conscience after having informed the buyer of whatever risky tendencies/quirks that the kite posesses. No different than I would when selling any other kite.

Would I like to have a Neo II? Heck yes! Better performance. Improved safetly. Easier re-launch. Would I like to have a PL Charger? Heck yes? Better performance. Improved safetly. Easier re-launch. Does this mean the Neo I and the Synergy completely suck and the manufacturers should make good on them? I don't think so. I do think that a new thread addressing all kite builders accountablilty might be lively topic.

Thank you. We now return you to your regularly scheduled forum topic.

Mel, I have been thinking about you a lot with regard to this thread and am pleased to see your post. Clear and even handed as always. One of the the many points we deliberated on when considering these over others was the slightly better low end of the Neos. I think you anticipated modest and light winds over heavier and gustier that might have led you to arcs at the time.

For the record everybody, in this photo album there are some pics of Jan-Hendrick Junker of HQ flying a Neo 8 in 4, yes 4 mph at HQ Demo Day '08 on Jekyll Island. Yes he had to run to launch and inflate it, but when inflated he flew it static without running around. Later in the afternoon when the winds built to 8-9, he got up on a skim board with the 11m Neo- downwind a but but riding none-the-less. No reasonable experienced kite could expect much better than this. I remember some FS riders there who were clearly impressed.

http://www.coastalwindsports.com/HQDemoDayJekyll08.html

sorry, my comments belonged on a thread about a Neo 1 not a 2 I removed them.

Quote:

Originally posted by stetson05 Quote: Originally posted by acampbell I have concluded that the only safe way to put a Neo 1 down in higher winds is with a helper at the edge of the window. Or maybe if you have a pole to back it on to. The 5th line safety on the Neo 2 is of course effective and un-ambiguous. I have had good luck putting the kite down by pulling the safety. Then as the kite has decreased power I haul in on one of the brake lines until the loop at the end of I think its called the leader line. I let go of the bar and this flags the kite out perpendicular to the wind direction. That seems to work ok for me. I think I read about doing that on here.

I started to try that one time an felt it ready to spin and backed off, thinking it would power up in death spiral, but Craig at HQ tells me he does that successfully with but a spin or two before it flags. I will try it.

Quote:

Originally posted by acampbell Jan-Hendrick Junker of HQ flying a Neo 8 in 4, yes 4 mph at HQ Demo Day '08 on Jekyll Island. Yes he had to run to launch and inflate it, but when inflated he flew it static without running around.

Was he able to demonstrate reverse launching at 4mph?

HQ needs to attend to some minor details which would aleviate some performance related confusion ---

On the HQ web marketing chart, the Neo2 8, 11, and 14 all list lower wind range of 4mph:



Whereas the HQ instruction manual for the same products lists a higher (evidently more truthful) speed:



Why doesn't the marketing material agree with the product manual?:puzzled:


In any event none of this has shaken my observation that, despite a few glitches in the HQ business processes and documentation, they produce a quality product for a competitive price.

In fact, my own criticisms aside - I'm so satisfied with the HQ product that I've gone ahead and ordered an 8m Neo2 to supplement the 11m.

Yes - Hello, my name is Bill and I'm a Kite-O-holic.

Does anyone remember what my original question was?:o:o

You wanted someone to answer your question?!? That's silly :D.

Quote:

Originally posted by bribe36 Does anyone remember what my original question was?:o:o

Quote:

Originally posted by acampbell I have not flown the 14. I don't know how much or if the lower end is extended from the 6-8 mph of the 11m, but it would not be much lower with that weight. I think a 14 would be fine for a big rider on water but a bit much for the bug. My comfort with the 11m tops out at about 18mph of wind speed, when I start feeling a draft under my 210 lb. arse.

Oh, yeah, the original question!
I tried to answer with the comment above, but I'm afraid my further comments about the the Neo 1 stirred the pot and contributed to a hijack. My bad.

I have since spoken to Craig at HQ about this after Frathouse asked me a similar question. Craig confirmed my thoughts above. The 14m Neo is suitable for the heavy rider, 200 lb +, needing more grunt on the water but would be too much on land. What surprised me was that he thought it would be too much on snow as well (like I know a lot about snow here in GA). While the 14m Neo 2 is will turn faster - Craig could downloop it without dragging a tip- The agility of the 11m would make up for the grunt the 14m offered on land and be much more useful.

I hope that helps some.

the neo1 11m is suitable for land based traction in light to moderate winds. once the wind gets powerful enough for kitesurfing it is dangerous to launch, and the safety system is ineffective. Therefore this kite is unsuitable for water use, contrary to the bumpf. HQ appear to have addressed these problems in the NEO2. I am yet to try one. I no longer use my NEO1 due to safety concerns.

I have never heard of launching problems with the Neo 1 in higher winds. Just launch like an ARC and fly to the edge of the window. I don't like the safety on the 1 and I have had some eye-opening moments with it but it's a bit harsh to condemn it altogether. It can be put down safely in high winds if you flag it by a wing tip, but that ends with a spin, roll and often a tangle or at least twists. Always and ignominious ending. Better is to land at the edge with helper to grab a wing tip.

It's worth noting that at least one HQ team rider has removed the 5th line on the Neo 2 altogether to reduce weight and drag. So it's a matter of informed choice. ( But I sure would keep the new safety)

i think its a different ball game when youre a landkiter.

also i disagree that you can launch like that straight out of the bag. unless its fully inflated (which only happens after take off) its very difficult to launch from the side of the wind window.

i really do believe that the HQ hype was misleading when advertising this as a highly suitable kitesurfing kite.

As i said before, for land kiting its fine. i purchased it for kitesurfing and its not really fit for purpose due to safety issues. if i had used it in places with less space, i could have been seriously injured. i got dragged quite far even after pulling the top hat. luckily there was nothing in my way.

you yourself say your comfort tops out at 18mph. I am much lighter than you at 165kg, but the kite only really becomes good enough to kitesurf at that speed or just below. So a water based safe windrange of 16-18mph is not really much!! i can appreciate that you like it for your buggy. i am terrified of it at the wind speeds required for kitesurfing.

Quote:
Originally posted by acampbell

I have not flown the 14. I don't know how much or if the lower end is extended from the 6-8 mph of the 11m, but it would not be much lower with that weight. I think a 14 would be fine for a big rider on water but a bit much for the bug. My comfort with the 11m tops out at about 18mph of wind speed, when I start feeling a draft under my 210 lb. arse.

Yeah I am not a water rider but can use my imagination and understand the issues in typical wind ranges for the water.

I'm going to have the guys at ProKiteSurf quote me on adding center bridle points for a 5th line.

My 11 m Neo is off to Jeff Howard and the guys at ProkiteSurf / www.fixmykite.com for a retro-fit of the new Neo 2 5th line safety. Jeff quoted me "around $12" for each of the three bridle points to be added to the sail. This is the only hard part requiring special skill; the rest can be done by most tinkerers and I have the specs.

I am going to have him sew up all the bridle segments and line segments plus add necessary hardware (Heavy amsteel-like dyneema for the bar segment, steel rings, stopper balls, etc.) so I will soon be able to report a complete price for the full-turn-key conversion.

I have most all the necessary specs for all size Neos and have shared them with Jeff, so that he should be able to take care of anyone else that wants to have the conversion done. Once I have the fix in and tested, I will reach out to all my past Neo customers to offer special arrangements.

I find the Neo 14m a great kite and have no problems using it on land 15mph and over. Had a realy good session and after packing up learnt that the wind had reached 21mph. I think it depends on your style, and if you like real powered up riding, then youll find it ok, but not every lies the powered up thing!

Regarding the safety, I have both neo 1's and 2's. I just don't have any problems with the neo 1's at all, even in stronger winds. Yep there's a bit of pull when you pull the safety. Maybe enough to pull out the ground stake, but not enough to pull me forward or off my feet like others on this thread have reported. For it to do that, the kite must of been flown in stupid wnds.
If you fly safe and know your limitation, you will never get your knickers in a twist. If your not confident at self landing, get an aid as you would with an LEI Regardless of the advertising spiel. I can't believe anyone having problems with the launch as the kite tends not to power up until it's filled up and taken full form, the only way I can imagine is if you take the kite out in stupid not recommended winds! I can only speak from experience!
What I find useful us a cork screw stake, that I use for both new 1 & 2's in all wind conditions without any problems... It holds the neo1, 11m in 20mph.
I would say to anyone, try these kites, they are great. Get yourself a cork screw stake for the neo 1's as the residual power after pull the safety will disslodge the provided stake in higher winds ( but still can't imagine anyone being dragged arround whilst the safety gas been deployed unless your under 3stones and have twigs for arms and legs).
It does appear that others on this thread have alteria motives Reading through the vicious attacks which I just can't relate to from my own experience of these kites.
My favourite kite:
6-18mph neo 14m on land
18-25mph neo 11m on land
24mph upwards 8m on land(it just loves to br thrown around)
I will be taking these kites on the water next week and looking forward to it. There's plenty of 8,11,14m neo users on water!
Happy flying all
Maz

Thanks for your well reasoned post.
I have the official HQ specifications for the Neo 2 bridles. They provided me the measurements but are distancing themselves from the project and basically say that we are on our own. This does not surprise me as they have not put the R&D into it and I am OK with that. Any mods will of course void any warranty and this is normal with any product. (Conspiracy theorists please take it somewhere else)

The bridle segment proportions appear to be inconsistent across the different sizes, but HQ insists they are correct because the kite proportions are not consistent across the size range (different A/R and so forth). HQ in fact insists that these measurements "will not work" for the Neo 1 for this reason. So I suggest using them as a starting point only. I have had my Neo 1 11m modded according to the Neo 2 11m specifications and will likely test it again today.

In my first test of this modification to the 11m Neo 1, I was trying to launch in 6-8mph, which was possible with the original 11m Neo 1, but the added weight of the 5th line made it impossible. I suspect that the modification has robbed it of 2 kts or so on the bottom end. For this reason I will find a way to make the 5th line bridle easily detachable for light winds. With both safety systems in available, I suspect that the modded Neo 1 will be a much more versatile kite than the Neo 2. The original safety system is entirely reliable and useful (easier re-launch too) in winds under 15mph.

I will be looking to see that the bridle segments are proportioned so that they are equally stressed when deployed to safety, and adjust if needed.

Prokitesurf charges only about $15 per bridle attachment point, and charged me $135 for the complete retrofit, with all components ( 5th line, stopper balls, steel rings, braided / sewn eyelets, sewn bridle segments, attachment points) just as constructed for the Neo 2.

I will share what I find out about the bridle proportions today. I have a customer's Neo 1 8m in for testing but have not modded it yet. If anyone else experiments and finds anything useful, please let me know so that we may share it with the kite community.

If anyone wants the existing and un-tested dimensions for the modifications, contact me off list.

Good luck with your further trials. One idea could be to try lighter dynema for the modded briddle section. I too am lookng into adding a 5th line But using existing briddle points and will try a 4 point attachment on the sail. The 2 centre leading edge attachment points and the 2 centre trailing attachment points. I thought that running a length of dynema from the front left point to the rear left point and again the same on the right hand side. Both lengths of line would then run loosley through a steel ring, so that when the safety is deployed and the lines pull tight, the load automitically evens out across the 4 connection points. then attaching the 5th line to the steel ring. Let me know if you can understand my idea and if not il send you a drawing / diagram.
As this will be used as a secondary saftey, we can presume that the kite will have already been some what stalled. Therefore, the load being put onto these attachment points should be minimal. This is the last result saftey, I can't imagine these points giving way under the strain, but if the do go, you only loose the kite and not yourself!
Good winds,
maz

I thought ye anti neoist's that are complaining the safety on the 1st generation would like to read this thread and see if you can find any similarities!

http://forum.kitecrowd.com/kite-landboarding/landing-securin...

Hmmm - I don't understand why you don't talk to HQ Phantom - we probably can't change anything here and we seem to be repeating the same thing. I have 2 Neo 1's - my choice to purchase..... and I did think it was a risk to go with a first version (of any product!) Would I go 1st ver again... probably not. I find them no more difficult to land than my other kites in high wind tho in lower wind it is better to use high wind landing techniques as sometimes landing on the brake lines does bounce the kite. I have also got better at tuning them for different winds via the knot settings.

The one disagreement I have with a couple reviews I read is that I think they are not a beginners kite. (lifty and powerful) I use the 6 and 11 in the water and on land and the 11 is a powerful buggy engine that does not need a lot of wind. (the 6 is a fun kite to fly!)

I was keen to get an 8m Neo to fill a gap but ended up getting a 10m PL Charger. Still haven't sorted the landing properly on that kite - but do I blame Peter Lynn? Darn I got a first ver of their new bridle system .....will I ever learn...)


Ah well ... and yes I guess I am stuck with my Neo 11!

I am looking to make a good deal on my 14m Neo 2. I am 6'3 230lbs and have flown it in 20mph didn't have any problems had it tuned right for nice lofty jumps on the ground. Never been out on the water.

I have successfully modded an 8 and 11m Neo 1 for 5th line and have the specs, if anyone wants. They taco on the 5th line as well or better than the Neo 2 and with both safety systems in place make for a very versatile and well mannered kite in a variety of winds.

The 14 is more of a water kite for heavier riders 200 # +. With it's added weight won't give much more low end than the 11m, just a bit more grunt.

I would be keen to get the specs for the mod Angus. Can you post a diagram with measurements/instructions?

Thanks.