The only people I know who swear by a 5th line kite are those people who do tricks on flat water. In the ocean that 5th line is a liability. If the kite should roll over in the surf, that 5th line acts like a knife and will rip your kite in two. I've seen this happen a number of times.

You definitely cant go wrong with a Rebel..Ive tried almost all newer inflatable kites and all foils, and I can say the Rebel is the best medium to strong wind kite (I've got a 2010 8m and 10m). It works very well in the waves, goes upwind like a Speed and jumps as high as any Flysurfer in the proper winds.

The Rebel does not have a bridle, but rather flies on a loaded 5th line unlike most bowkites. The lines are directly connected to the kite like a C-kite, but the 5th line acts as a very simple bridle. So you need the 5th Element bar for it to fly at all.

I thought about getting the Evo...I think it is more of a beginner kite that pulls more downwind because of its delta shape. It is flown on 4-lines because of the bridle, but you can put the 5th element on it for the safety benefits of the 5th line.

I would try both of them out, as they are both great German designed kites. Save the foil kites for lightwind and showing off!

Its definitely gonna be one of these kites. The compass on North's Site really shows the Evo as being a great kite for freeriding, and freestyle, while it shows the rebel to be mostly freeriding. I'm more or less on flat water and choppy conditions. As Kami pointed out I'll more than likely be freeriding, but I like the idea that it will work great unhooked should I get to that point (it is what I would like to eventually) If I can learn the ropes, I'm interested in wakeskate, as they look a ton of fun. Four lines does look real simple though. I know that 5th line is the ultimate safety, but 4 lines must be pretty safe as well or they wouldn't sell it.....am I right??????

tubes have become ridiculously efficient and easy to relaunch.

tubes will get you(beginner) going sooner in lighter air. bridal depower may go about the same but require different skill set., the same with arcs and for the beginner just require more air to perform the same.

4 line roll over is what you want for relaunch. a 5th in heavy air works great for all stop but can be trouble like BK said. newer fifth line units are better esp. 2 attachment points on LE. learning both will just require more learning. more for the beginner generally is confusing. as confidence rises then YOU can make choices.


trying to make it happen in light is tough! add current, tide and wave even more so. and learning forget it, its not a gear problem!

learning ..YOU NEED TO BE POWERED no matter what you're on.

operating the gear in light on land(or water) to get use to the handling is one thing , to add the board for a ride is not the same in the same light air.

if its not 15-20 your not going.

riding in 10-15 on the water(ocean) is a different game, maybe different gear and different skill set not yet available in the beginner.

Going Evo vs Rebel is your the choice of your own preference. Both will work just fine for learning, if you get the right size. The Evo will be more similar to a low-aspect delta kite in feel, eg Wainman, Pulse, F-one bandit. Easier relaunch, but with more pull in the center of the windwindow so worse upwind. I heard that Evos pull harder than Rebels eg. a 11m Evo=12m Rebel.

I prefer the Rebel because I like the high-performance feel of the Flysurfer Speeds, and the bridle-less configuration(nothing to fail).

Another choice is the North Fuse which is a basically a 4-line Rebel with a bridle...

The 4-line bar is fine, but it will not offer 100% safety. All bowkites really dont even need to have a flag-out, you can just clip to suicide and in most situations letting go of the bar will be enough. But the 5th line will completely flag the kite out, like a Flysurfer 5th line, so if youre out in 40 kt winds suddenly with a 12m you can just pull the safety, but with most 4-line safety systems when you pull...the kite will either spin while pulling a bit or just depower 90%. But you cannot have full safety.

As for unhooking...all kites will unhook fine if you trim them properly. You can unhook on a Silver arrow if you like and do all the basic moves. Only once you get on a professional level and want to do handle-passes then a C-kite will work much better, but for learning it will be the worst.

Wakeskating is done hooked it so any kite works.

Thanks for the help on this guys I learned lots from everyone's responses. I was gonna go for the rebel, but like mentioned above 4 lines sounds real simple, and judging from the many videos, it looks to be safe enough. I'll try to make a beginners perspective review, when I have the kite in my hands.

Quote:

Originally posted by PHREERIDER if its not 15-20 your not going. riding in 10-15 on the water(ocean) is a different game, maybe different gear and different skill set not yet available in the beginner.

I don't even like trying to landboard in wind less than 15mph takes a bit more attention on kite work. I don't imagine underpowered on water works very well either.

If you end up getting the 4 line Quad Control and want to try out the 5th line for the 2010 or 2011 North Trust Bar, I have the 5 line setup I am not using. I could swap to the 4 line to use on my 9M Rise. I currently have it setup just the bar on my Pulse with the FDS. The 4 line setup uses a mini 5th to flag out on one or both of the front lines. The really nice thing about it is the centerlines swivel below the bar with the 5th going thru the middle and it is a push away quick release.

4 and 5 line North Bar Setup

Shaggs,

U2u nfleech about the bar/setup.........................even though he flew the Vegas' the bar is the same...............he had the 5th line setup rigged and dont recall any bar/line mares.....................he replaced the depower and 5th line due to wear and that process was very easy (keep in mind he logs huge hours) and all of his are in salt water...............................

Delta Cs are nice you really can't get a terrible kite these days maybe workmanship can be a problem but overall they are all good.. it will be the first tube of many. enjoy d

L

Sorry to keep bringing this thread back up guys. My last question before my decision is made. It was suggested that maybe a 14m would be a viable option in my area since my friend always uses a 15m unless the winds are close or over 40km/h. I'm 185 though and at 225 I can see why he'd need the extra grunt, except he manages fine on a 135-138cm board, and I'll be using a 144x44 till I can justify a smaller board. Is a 14m gonna be too much kite????? Does it make a big difference at the lower end (I'm not trying if its blowing less than 25km/h). I don't want to lose to much top end by going to the 14m, I could see how it may be feasible when the winds aren't quite strong enough, but I always thought that anything bigger than 12m would be for a guy pushing 200+lbs, unless you are flying a big flysurfer for low end. This is getting more and more complicated with every variable I throw in the situation. On land slightly underpowered isn't a problem like it would be on water.:dunno:

What's that in nautical? ok 40kph is about 20 knots, 25kph is about 13.

I think the sweet spot for you with a 14m and the board there is probably 15 knots.
It's a sliding scale - more wind, smaller kite; less wind, bigger kite but the details are determined by the lard of your ass you can get a LOT more out of the bottom end with the right board too.
Yes it's complicated but it's also pretty simple once you get the feel for conditions, kite and board. If you're serious, you WILL have at least 2 kites and 2 boards!

By way of example - we got some tiny locals here ... one guy weighs 60kg :o he can get away with a much smaller kite and board.
For most of the 'normal' guys - say 75-80kg - if I'm on the LEI's, when there's enough wind (more than 10 knots) I'm usually on a 2-3m bigger kite ... when the wind REALLY picks up, it's almost size for size.

Underpowered sucks, this is true. With just one kite and board though, you'll have to pick your days a bit more carefully - but it's doable :D always remember to keep room downwind of you to obstacles like - the land

Ooh here's a chart from my blog ...

Quote:

Originally posted by shaggs2riches Sorry to keep bringing this thread back up guys. My last question before my decision is made. It was suggested that maybe a 14m would be a viable option in my area since my friend always uses a 15m unless the winds are close or over 40km/h. I'm 185 though and at 225 I can see why he'd need the extra grunt, except he manages fine on a 135-138cm board, and I'll be using a 144x44 till I can justify a smaller board. Is a 14m gonna be too much kite????? Does it make a big difference at the lower end (I'm not trying if its blowing less than 25km/h). I don't want to lose to much top end by going to the 14m, I could see how it may be feasible when the winds aren't quite strong enough, but I always thought that anything bigger than 12m would be for a guy pushing 200+lbs, unless you are flying a big flysurfer for low end. This is getting more and more complicated with every variable I throw in the situation. On land slightly underpowered isn't a problem like it would be on water.:dunno:

12m in 40k/25mph winds on a 144cm board will be plenty for an expereinced rider and too much for you at the beginner level. In 40k/25mph Im on a 9m rippin..............I weigh 190 lbs.............factor in 10lbs for your wetsuit /harness, still overpowered. 25k/15mph is plenty on a 12m, 144cm board. suited up......................12m is also faster and you will learn kite speed will add power while sining..........once your forward speed/apparent kicks in, park and bark, set the edge hard, send it back and up you shall go.......................

I like this thread. Keep it going. My vote would be for a larger board (which you have) and a 12 inflato. I weigh the same as you now and have used the 12 OR Rise more than anything so far this year. A 12 will be faster than a 14 and you can work it on a larger board. Last Sunday when the wind died down there were only a few 14s out. When the wind came back on those guys were really powered up. I am not sure what your conditions are but the most common I see in Alameda in the Spring is 12 and in the delta in the summer is 9. You already have a speed 12 but I think that it would handle lower wind than a 12 tube kite.

Okay thanks guys, this confirmed my gut feeling about the 12m, I've been given a couple links to other sites with used gear. I'll watch them a bit till I finally get my $$$. If I can get something used still in great condition, then maybe I can spring for a 9m as well. If not I'm thinking that once I have the skills to ride the 12m in the higher end, then I might be able to get some riding in on one of my arcs. In the stronger winds, the 10m synergy has been relatively easy to relaunch, so if I stay close enough to shore I should be okay. By the time I'm confident enough to ride in 40kph winds, I'm guessing I might be able to justify a 9m kite anyway. This has been a real learning experience for me, I'm sure it will pay off in the end. You guys are awesome thanks.

You'll probably get more mileage out of having a medium sized kite and two boards ...

What's wrong with the Speed2 12 again?

Nothing wrong with the speed 2 Kami. I found myself fighting with overflying, inverts and back stalling the last time I was in the water (in the most typical winds I get out here) My friend was off and cruising on his 15m cult, and his friend slightly lighter than me was riding on his 12m cult and exact same board as me (it was his third time flying on the water) This drove me to believe that I might have better luck with an lei until I build some skills. I dropped the speed2 in the drink multiple times, the last time the bridle got all tangled and took me half hour to straighten out back on the beach. I had a great time on the snow with it, but think it'll serve me best once I'm efficient at riding. I don't really mind buying more gear, I'm kinda interested in learning a pump anyways. Kinda nuts I know The second board will come soon enough too.

Check your line lengths or send it for a tune to John at powerkite... etc etc. You have to be a little more careful with the foils of course ... but mine hasn't inverted since I got it tuned

You're right though, the LEI is just dead simple. You lose the low end and pure rush of the foils, but they're less of an issue when things go wrong. Don't be fooled though - you can still invert an LEI :o

Oh and don't let John talk you in to selling your S2 12 - he's mad keen for them

John tuned mine to C+3, B+1.5 or something similar to that(BandC were short relative to a and z). One end was really tuned, while the other was out a bit. For simplicity I tuned them to all even like the videos show. I had the wac set at full soft before, it was light, and I felt I was losing the feel for the kite. Now I have it set to the middle knot of hard/soft its not as nimble as before, but the bar pressure seems to help me stay in control. Going back to the lake next weekend, I'm gonna give my friend's kite and set how I manage with the speed2 now. Once I can ride and cruise I'm gonna tune it back the other way, as the light bar pressure is really nice.

It's just as nimble, you just have to flex your muscles :D agreed on control though! You shouldn't really need to muscle the Speed around unless your desperate ... for apparent wind, to avoid something or for a good jump Well at least the 19 is like that - let it lazily get around to doing what you want and there's enough power on tap 90% or the time ...

A lot of good info on this thread! Just wanted to say thanks to everyone who posted up info and their opinions as I will be in the same boat as shaggs.

This thread really helped narrow down which kite i'll be looking into. Altho Im at 165lbs so I might go with a 10m instead of a 12.

Shaggs which one did you end up going with and whats your review?!

I flew an 2011 EVO 9 last year near Myrtle Beach in 20'ish knots. I'm 185 and the EVO 9 had ample power and turning speed. Lot's of depower and pretty much would flip over and launch itself while I was trying to get into the board straps.

The EVO is a grunty kite and won't have any problems getting you up and running.

I hate the colors, though. Simple color patterns are easier to see and nicer to look at. The 2011 North kites really are ugly. Their teal colored storage bags are just as nasty looking, too.

-joedy

I actually ended up with a unused unopened 2009 Airush Flow FT. I had a bit of issues with the bar that was sent and not being compatible safeties. I got it all sorted out and have only flown the kite once. When I did fly it, I noticed how much of a different feeling it was from flying a foil. I really hope to get some snow sooner or later so that I can snowkite with it. This next spring I was looking at investing in a 9m evo or rebel. But now I'm deciding that a trip to the coast and a 3-5 day lesson camp will be a more beneficial investment to my kiteboarding future. After the lesson, I hope to have the confidence and skills to actually enjoy the limited time I actually have to ride on the water. I want the past summer to be the last one that I'm not out there cruising with my friends.