Q power line would be an interesting product in 200#. Is it lots thinner than the 600#?

another 2 cents worth.

It depends if you are racing or free riding like RS said earlier
I have 17m, 20m, 25, 30m Ozone line sets and fly mostly Vapors

You can fly a bigger kite with 17s and have better upwind ability than any smaller kite on long lines. Better pilots will hold these down easily but less skilled it can be a hand full. Racing in a group with 17m lines is much easier than longer lines also.

It will be more enjoyable to fly a smaller, more forgiving kite size with medium length lines, as these are what most kites are designed for.

My 30s are ok for getting up a little higher in the sky for lighter wind, but they do lack the punch that a shorter line set offers.

I watch the ultra long lines with small kites go back and forth across the beach ok, they have good pull but, they don't go upwind well, because it is a smaller kite.

Chris C 1

Hey Bobby
I run thinner Q-Power and a little shorter lines on arcs running on the dry lake - love the whistling from the lines i think it makes you go faster :-)
Here is a scan i took a while ago to send to someone looking for line.
(edit - I may have taken those measurements using my calipers...it's been a while I'm not sure)

Quote: Originally posted by BeamerBob

Q power line would be an interesting product in 200#. Is it lots thinner than the 600#?

In a word, yup.

Philip

Quote: Originally posted by sand flea

I watch the ultra long lines with small kites go back and forth across the beach ok, they have good pull but, they don't go upwind well, because it is a smaller kite. Chris C 1

I have to disagree. they dont go as far into the window because of the line drag.

The upwind performance is diminished because of the parasitic drag on the lines. This is the reason that shorter lines will allow the kite to create better upwind performance than longer lines will on the same kite. Two things will reduce the upwind performance, first and most obvious is the drag on the brake lines. As these lines have more pull against them as the kite flies through the air, they actually slow the kite down and pull it further into the window and further away from the edge, causing less upwind performance. This is the same effect as pulling on the brake lines to slow it down, instead of you doing it through the handles, the wind does it for you as the kite flies through the air. Shorter lines have less drag, therefore the kite can reach the edge of the window more and give better upwind performance. Second, the parasitic drag also effects the main power lines (top lines) causing a greater arc to the kite as compared to the edge of the window than shorter lines will - because the top lines are being pulled back more. This actually puts the kite at its best upwind performance position without allowing the kite to reach the edge of the window, actually hindering its performance.

One thing I have to strongly disagree with you on Jeff is that a 12 meter kite on short lines can be outperformed (power wise) by a 2 or 3 meter kite on 200' lines. I have a full quiver of Yakuza GT's, from 2.2 meter all the way up to 14 meter in size. I also have linesets from 10 meter to 50 meter in length. In 2 to 3 mph winds, I can buggy with speeds up to 8 - 10 mph with my 14m (On Ivanpah). My 2.2 or even my 3.0 will not even get off the ground in those winds and if you do happen to get it to launch, you will never be able to buggy with it even if it is on 200' lines. Just the added line weight alone makes it difficult to launch in those winds. Saying you can purchase a 2 or 3 meter PKD and fly it on 200' lines and produce more power output than a 12 meter kite (I feel) is absurd and very misleading. I would have to do that for myself to believe it. As for my kites, my 12m is no comparison to my 2.2 meter in power output for a given wind and line length.

Also, line length will effect the overall speed of a kite as well because of the same parasitic drag. The more drag produced, the less performance you will get. Ozone, HQ and PL sell the linesets that are packaged with their kites because that is what is most practical for the industry, not because the kites are 'designed' to perform best with that particular size. They all have stated to me that line length can vary depending on what the pilot wants or needs for his/her particular application and varying the line lengths will change the performance of the kites, some will increase performance in some areas while other areas could decrease in performance. I have never been told that factory specified line length is the optimum length and changing this will hinder the kites performance in all areas and should not be done. Even when I was selling PKD kites I was never told this....but that was quite a while ago and this may have changed since then with the PKD brand. Not trying to be confrontational with you Jeff, just trying to clear up some information that could be taken wrongly by the less informed.

Anyways, excellent thread and awesome discussion.

Wondered when you would respond Kent.
Your right about the edge of the window. My mistake, when I spoke of being farther into the window it was in reference to the edge not the center. Kind of like the side on wind thing or side shore or what ever that is.:D

Now for the "strongly disagree" part. It is obvious you were not there. I dont do this in the dark of night or behind closed doors, it is out in the world with everyone watching.
It is obvious you have no idea of the type or make of lines I was using. You obvious dont have a clue what kite or kites I fly, And as for not being controversial, you have no idea of what PKD makes or how they fly. A model T is not todays Ford. And you obviously didnt see the statement where I said "THIS IS ONLY A GUIDE TO UNDERSTAND THE DIFFERENCE IN LINE LENGTHS. There are always things that will change the outcome like line size, type of kite, and most of all YOU." So I will say it again.
How about you meet me at SOBB, or WBB, or JIBE, or any other venue outside of Ivanpah and we will have a go at it. Your GT's and my Centuries, or Zebra's, Vapors's, or how about my GT's. While I am thinking about it I will bring my NPW's, the Born and Susan models.
Better yet, Ivanpah is fine.
As for the rest of your "absurd" statement, salespeople only tell the TRUTH. I wont sell you or anyone else a PKD kite any more than any of the other kites on the market if its not your need or fit. The Century just happened to be hooked up to that set of lines. I could launch a barrage of statements here but what good would that do? For a guy who made the statement a number of times that Blokarts are not that good of a deal and that Mantas are the best, you end up selling them. How do you like riding the Blokart or do you? Still trying to make a 21/12x8 tire fit without rubbing the fork, have you figured out the reason yet? I have.

I have asked any and all that are present at the time I fly long lines "Anyone want to try long lines?" Not a lot of hungry hands, as for the few that have given it a go have all said the same thing. Its not as bad as you would think and you were the only one out buggying. Not my words but theirs.

"Not trying to be confrontational with you Jeff, just trying to clear up some information that could be taken wrongly by the less informed." Me too.

DING !!! Go to your corner.

Quote: Originally posted by greasehopper

DING !!! Go to your corner.

Are you trying to start something? I like Kent, he has little kids still at home.

Quote: Originally posted by bigkid

Quote: Originally posted by sand flea   I watch the ultra long lines with small kites go back and forth across the beach ok, they have good pull but, they don't go upwind well, because it is a smaller kite. Chris C 1 I have to disagree. they dont go as far into the window because of the line drag.

I think you are both right.

Obviously, the kite line companies are going to slag fishing line, and I don't doubt that their product is somewhat superior as it is application specific. (High end products like Q-power are obviously superior!) However, some things are said that are distinctly not true.
I.e.

Quote:

The Spectra weave in fishing line is loose which allows the line to give stretch which is good for keeping a fish on the line but very bad for kite flying.

I fish, and all the line companies are marketing their Dyneema line as "near zero stretch". Nobody wants their line to stretch to keep a fish on the line, that is how fish are LOST as well as sensitivity. The spring in the system comes from the rod, that's it.

I know there are some out there who bridle with fishing line, I just completed a NPW bridled with Tuff Line fishing line, and it flies great. I tied lots of knots, and if you know the proper knots, braided line is very strong. If you read the descriptions of the product on the Tuff Line site, it sounds a lot like how they describe... kite line. And it reportedly breaks at 3x its test value, with almost no stretch up until 2x its test value.

I think there is no problem with using premium fishing line for bridles or even power lines. But NEVER trust a cheap chinese product!

As far as length goes - out on the lake, the longer the better, within reason. More power stroke = more fun! In gusty crosswinds, shorter lines = less untangling when bowtied. And then at the extreme, small spaces or terrifying winds require short lines to the point of handles only.

Quote: Originally posted by bigkid

Quote: Originally posted by greasehopper   DING !!! Go to your corner. Are you trying to start something? I like Kent, he has little kids still at home.

Who? Me? I'm a good little boy, honest :D

Wow Ken look what you did.

For what it's worth I'll chime in. I like long lines, no shorter than 27m and usually in the 30 to 40m range. Better for speed (slingshot effect) better for power, better for threading the needle on rivers and areas where there's no wind at surface level or if the wind down low has too much rotor action. Parasitic drag is always a consideration and I could go with thinner lines but brute force and survivability are more my tastes and if I want to dump drag I'll do it on my person first.

That said, we shorten lines in lessons sometimes because there's certain benefits. I've run 10m lines on my 9m Ranger and it was like freakin mountain biking on a kite. WHen the wind direction is right you can get into some crazy places with lines like that. There's a lot of attraction for me to have a set up like that. But then why mess with a kite and not just get a Kitewing?

Maybe some line lengths are sped'c because that's what the designer has in mind. Maybe the get spec'd because the $ was right from their supplier. Whatever the reason for a given line length with a given wing my position is if you like it great and if you feel like experimenting then go nuts! Sometimes engineers, the smart cats they are, don't take everything into consideration. And sometimes what you see on paper or what the design parameters dictate about a kite's performance envelope doesn't always work in the real world. Actual real world experience is what proves stuff. Otherwise test pilots would be out of a job. :D

If it feels good, DO IT.