I recently attempted the clamshell landing on my Phantom II and it worked great on the first try. I'd be nervous to try it in high winds but it looks like it will work whenever you can stall it to the ground.

Quote: Originally posted by ssayre

Not to thread drift, but what is the best depower for inland choppy wind. I got an arc because they are suppose to be good for that, but are there any others?

I don't have hands on experience but am told that many of the LEI kites perform as good or better in gusty wind than arcs ?

The leis that I have flown do better than most foils I have flown now, but I would disagree that they are better in gusts than arcs. Arcs sometimes overfly and can stall in crappy shifty wind, but they usually drift back into the wind without any problems. If you overfly an lei, they can Hindenburg because they are so nose heavy and you will see it drop like a rock with wings out of the sky.

Some really good points being made

Very late to the show but the advice already offered is so spot on!
I had this same debate just over a year ago and so as to not cover ground that has already been covered I'll just tell you what tipped me over to the depower foil direction such as the Montana.

We are both inland flyers and as such the 18M Phantom II size -wise would probably be your best bet given your size and the average winds. That's a big boy to haul around and set up.
The ARC's are perfect for clean, consistent, coastal winds which we just don't get enough of.
The foils do turn faster and are more similar handling-wise to the FB kites you already know.

I picked up an older but really nice 8.5M Flexifoil Sabre II from Chedarhead and it has been perfect for my conditions. I really wanted an ARC but kept coming back to the depower foil because I felt that most of the time the ARC would be like fitting a square peg in a round hole for my wind conditions. The ARC's just need more wind than what a foil requires. So a big ARC will work but will be slow...

I really don't feel like setup time is very valid concern because once you learn ground handling of an arc, you can keep lines attached and setup is ridiculously fast. I literally pull my kite out, throw it open, walk the lines off the bar, walk back to the kite to inflate(takes about a minute or less in proper winds), then go pick up my bar and hook in and go. The only extra step is the extra minute to inflate compared to a foil. Same thing for packing up. If you have a buddy to land your kite, packing up is literally the same time as a foil because your buddy lands you and pulls your deflate zipper, and you wrap up your lines and fold the kite in from the wingtips just like any foil.

As for needing more wind, if you are finding you do not have enough ripstop up, then you run into the same problem with a foil as well. There are nice big light wind arcs. I arcs have some of the best cost to size ratios around. A 15-18m arc will get you rolling just fine in ~7-8 mph of wind.

Also, about turning speed, have you gotten a chance to fly a Charger yet? Those things can really swing around!

I have thought about trying Depow on and off for a long time and have read many a thread with a similar intent. However, ... This has been the most helpful one I believe I've ever read.

I have often thought if I were to get into depower, I'd want an arc, but hearing about the ease of set up and other positives of the foils, that seems to be the way to go for me. I struggle and strive to make everything I do kite-wise take as little time as possible to set up and break down to give me the maximum time riding when I'm in the field. This is mostly because I've really gotten to the place where I only get out MAYBE once a month. So whatever I can do to minimize set up and be moving during that time is very valuable to me. So... Apex or Montana,... Maybe Access... It's a ways off, we'll see.

@ Angus... Every time I hear or read something about auto zenith I think of that story you told about AJ. You told me that story the first time I met you on JI and it always comes to mind... Plus your bit about the bar in one hand and a beer in the other

I've only flown an arc static once and I haven't flown open cell depower at all, but what pushed me towards arc is although it may take a couple minutes longer to set up (which as long as you own a leaf blower it doesn't take longer just something else you need to bring if the wind is on the light side) I'm hoping that I get more quality hassle free time in the buggy. Hopefully I'll have the winds and the time to test this theory this weekend.

AnnieO might be right about needing clean wind ( I don't know yet) but if so that is contradictory to the other posts. I think clean wind is best for inflation without artificial means but I'm hoping they handle gusts as advertised and as others have posted. I'm not talking about the mega gusts just the normal least gusty inland days.

I can only speak of my experience in the Arc vs. Foil debate but this I know, in my conditions a 15M Arc will not fly in 7-8mph winds, an 18M may or may not very well. Most of us inland flyers also have tree lines to contend with. When the wind is 7-8 at flagpole level it is not the same at kite level on my field because it's surrounded by trees. So filling the Arc and launching the Arc are considerably more difficult. Again, I wanted an Arc so bad I could taste it but my criteria was such that for my first depower kite I wanted to be able to use it as often as possible. An Arc for me did not meet that criteria because I would only occasionally have excellent flying conditions in which I would be able to enjoy it's full capabilities. So, to each his own, but I've been where 3Shot is and since I believe his conditions are similar to mine I'm trying to offer him a solution that will get him out flying more then less.

On the other point about set-up, I'm a one woman show so yeah, a depower foil is easier and less of a hassle for me to set-up.

Yes, I was mainly talking about clean wind for set-up and launch. Arcs are really awesome with handling gusts. It's amazing how different my winds are at kite level from flagpole level, it really can make for a huge challenge filling an Arc with just the wind itself and then actually getting it launched.

I launched mine in 8 mph wind and it flew great. Not enough power to get moving but it handled and flew fine. As far as the wind at ground level, your right , I would have never been able to launch it without the leafblower. I brought it because I always read the number one thing with launching is making sure it's filled. Plus I already bought it so I have to convince myself I made the right decision. :D

I have been following this thread and thought I would add my .02. It comes down to what are you wanting to do. Inland flying for me is more about lulls then gusts and also limited space. If you are dealing with light winds sub 8-9 in a smallish area in a buggy fly Fixed bridle on handles. If you have real wind OR room to run then depower all the way though I will admit I really prefer handles in a buggy and depower when I am vertical. It took me a while to realize the right tools are what works and is possible. The majority of my home field flying is fb buggy because that is what Mother Nature offers. When there is enough wind or at the beach in clean winds all I want is board and depower. I believe the safest way to fly is DP but in light winds and normal inland conditions (smallish grass fields) FB Just works better
Scott ( still working on the landing)
Oh and I can fly my arcs in 7 mph winds but that becomes work- where same winds a 6m FB I can have fun. We all need more kites but all have our goto one or two

Again, I would only be using the foil/arc during JIBE, WBB ,etc. Like Annie said, I have some pretty janky inland wind most days. Pretty content with my FBs for my inland flying. Just super curious what a one handed park n' ride would be like. This would prolly be the only time I would ever fly an arc or depower foil. It would be very nice to have one for these special occasions.

So, If I could have only one depower foil/arc to start out riding at the places I listed, what would be a good size for general buggy use. No speed records. No Hot rodding. Just plain ole' cruising? 6'2", 210lbs, in a VTT buggy. By no means am I running out tomorrow to purchase one. Just want to get my mind headed in the right direction.

Thank you all for such an interesting thread so far

Of the stuff in my Sig' I take my 15m Synergy with me when I can only travel with 1 kite. ( accept Ivanpah )

I can work a ride out of that kite by about 7mph on good hard pack and am comfortable under it into the 20's with clean winds.

You can park and ride 1 handed with FB kites and a strop in clean winds ? Maybe not comfortable enough to drink your beer 1 handed but for a good long time.

Oh yes, well... we must be able to drink the whole beer 1 handed

There is that next to new 10m access xt for sale on here that was just listed. Absolutely love my 8m, has been my most used kite lately(would be even more so if it was the 10.) The thing just works....does only what you ask of it, nothing you dont.Quite a deal at that price. Super easy handling, very friendly in gusts, large wind wind range, etc.

I have zero ARC experience, but one thing I often hear is "once you know the tricks( launching, landing) it's not so bad, unless you pop the safety and then it can be a mess." Well the open cell depow foils... there is no tricks or quirks, which I like. I'm often landing, launching, parking frequently while grabbing a drink or giving a buddy a hand. As easy as tugging the power lines...or pulling the brake strap and if you do have to drop to the safety, reset is a snap( on the xt anyways) ...Probably even w/o even getting out of the buggy if you're feeling lazy.

Bottom line.... go get your hands on a depower whatwver variation it may be. That XT for sale could most likely be flipped at little to no loss if y didn't fancy it.

Meat is right on.

YOU SHOULD JUMP AT THAT XT FAST OR IT WILL BE GONE ! The perfect deal for you and no risk since it will resell at no real loss.

10m Access on it's way
So it has begun......
A new world awaits.....
:wee:

I'll be like a newb all over again lol
Lots of questions cometh...

Quote: Originally posted by MeatÐriver

There is that next to new 10m access xt for sale on here that was just listed. Absolutely love my 8m, has been my most used kite lately(would be even more so if it was the 10.) The thing just works....does only what you ask of it, nothing you dont.Quite a deal at that price. Super easy handling, very friendly in gusts, large wind wind range, etc. I have zero ARC experience, but one thing I often hear is "once you know the tricks( launching, landing) it's not so bad, unless you pop the safety and then it can be a mess." Well the open cell depow foils... there is no tricks or quirks, which I like. I'm often landing, launching, parking frequently while grabbing a drink or giving a buddy a hand. As easy as tugging the power lines...or pulling the brake strap and if you do have to drop to the safety, reset is a snap( on the xt anyways) ...Probably even w/o even getting out of the buggy if you're feeling lazy. Bottom line.... go get your hands on a depower whatwver variation it may be. That XT for sale could most likely be flipped at little to no loss if y didn't fancy it.

Quite honestly meat, your post and that XT price is what won me over. I am a passive pilot. Not aggressive. That's just what I prefer. I REALLY enjoy flying my uber tame Flows in the buggy. I have been researching depower off and on for the last several months, and the Access always seemed to rise near the top of the list. Funny. Just the other day I posted I was not rushing out tomorrow to buy a depower/arc. LMAO. But like you, Ken, and several others said, that was a mega crazy price to refuse!!

So, did I buy the kite without ever flying a depower before? Yes. Not just here, but a lot of other threads always suggest an 8m or 10m Access as a good intro into depower. You guys have never steered me wrong before. I believe the Access will provide me with every thing I am looking for in a depower. Simple and stable flying that I have come to really love from my Ozone Flows. In fact, the Access is just a gentle giant depower version of the Flow (I'm told). The Ozone quality in this deal was a huge perk as well. I also "figured" the 10m would be a good middle of the road size if I can only have one at this time. Then, I can move up or down a size as I tailor my depower flying preferences. Bottom line is: After several months of ponder, it's time to stop guessing, picking, and choosing. Now its time to get my depower fly on! :wee:

Thank you guys and gals for such a good thread loaded with great info!!

Congrats on the new kite, buddy... I look forward to seeing it at JIBE. Don't forget to order a new spreader bar for your harness too!

Dino is hooking me up with the Link spreader for the fb AQR. The Divine came with the regular spreader.

Launching isn't the problem with arcs, IMO. Its the never ending flopping about,slow inflation, bowtie danger during pre-inflation, lines getting under the kite, inverts, AMD lugging around a ton of nylon in a poorly - designed bag.

However, it is totally worth all the BS, if you fly on a beach. Autozenith is worth its weight in saved blood loss. No bridles is awesome, flying aesthetics are amazing (at least for the phantom I)... Inland, though, its no question. I've almost walked away from the sport a few times due to my battles with arcs.

You're welcome to try my FS's at JIBE if you want. I'm bringing 3, I think.

Ah, missed page 2. Congrats! You'll love that kite. Just don't take it into water