if it was a HIGH aspect ratio synergy with LOTS of cells and diagonal ribs aka modern paragliders for more stability, that would be totally ok and cool. but the prototype looks like a rather low aspect ratio - lower than the scorpion for example...

sorry if this has been covered already. as i was reading along, i had to add my 2¢ when i came across it. hope this makes the cut.

"Double graphics, I'd like to see that too but I think it's not gonna happen, costs more, tricky to get both skins to match exactly and the kite will weigh a bit more."

most kite graphics SUCK; however, the phantom was the coolest looking kite ever, imho. nevertheless, even though i fancy good graphics, i would prefer the opposite, and have the whole top and bottom skin be a single piece of fabric for the best, weight, water repelling, aerodynamics, and durability. simple, bad ass kite, with some silk screened eyes. what else could convey that flying phantom look?

better weight, durability, aerodynamics, and cost, etc. for me, outweigh any bull#@%$#! graphic.

ssameer (mykl)

fully agree !
stop doing that sewing and gluing of kite fabric panels just to do some graphics.. all that makes the kite more expensive, probably drastically increases and accumulates inaccuracies, adds weak spots that might burst in crashes and makes the kite less air-tight.

i am biased and really think the venom series really expresses functional beauty.

its made into the unit, not just a crumbling graphic. i see enough scribbling on tube kites and they turn into missing pieces. the wing tip printing i feel could really be dropped .

the shadow cast images on the venomphantom series from pilot POV is mastery of multidimensional functional art.

not only are they ultra unique in design and performance. they have a visual distinction above the rest.

chilled version

wow, that blue and white one is nice! never seen that color scheme.

i'm still for the pII to be a solid color, single skin, with some big, silk screened on phantom eyes... nothing else.

what's up with that kite? is it coming or not?

I like looking at the kite in flight -that's a big part of my session experience -- the beauty of the flying kite. I'm driven by good performance too, but I've bought kites just because they look really cool in flight. I LOVE the Phantom Phace (sorry Phree, I've picked up your dialect a bit...:smug:and I would love to see the print on both sides. I'm with Phree with the fact that printed graphics dont hold up. Lets face it, a new PL Arc is gonna cost some jack no matter what and most of us arc users will pay for it with or without the expense of the added graphics. I say engineer the thing with the graphics sewn in as a skin and not on top of the skin to keep the weight down.

Quote:

Originally posted by teklife sorry if this has been covered already. as i was reading along, i had to add my 2¢ when i came across it. hope this makes the cut. "Double graphics, I'd like to see that too but I think it's not gonna happen, costs more, tricky to get both skins to match exactly and the kite will weigh a bit more." most kite graphics SUCK; however, the phantom was the coolest looking kite ever, imho. nevertheless, even though i fancy good graphics, i would prefer the opposite, and have the whole top and bottom skin be a single piece of fabric for the best, weight, water repelling, aerodynamics, and durability. simple, bad ass kite, with some silk screened eyes. what else could convey that flying phantom look? better weight, durability, aerodynamics, and cost, etc. for me, outweigh any bull#@%$#! graphic. ssameer (mykl)

Nothing personal but I am glad you are not designing the Phantom II. There is a lot to be said for the sight of the Phantom face racing above the dunes at 20- 30- 40 mph and I agree with Phree and Pokite that the artwork is a big part of the experience. I flew the blank prototype at NABX and was pleased beyond expectations. It was very fast and almost too quick to turn with the VPC for my tastes, but that very property enabled me to fly the kite in low winds that would not otherwise support a 9m arc. So they will deliver with the choice of flying with the VPC or plain pigtails to chill it out. Nice to have the option. I think it will support the slight added weight of sewn graphic panels and the original Phanny has not proved to be too weak.

Last I heard from -mj- is that they will not incorporate the original graphics but strive for something playfully sinister and cool (my choice of words and interpretation).

They say 4th qtr 2011 but I have to guess that 1st qtr 2012 is more realistic based on past releases.

Sorry I haven't been paying much attention to what's been transpiring lately on PKF but the season is windinng down here in New England. The ice/snow riding is awesome right now but not long for this world so I haven't been paying attention to anything but weather and riding with just one more week of riding here before we have to stat doing long drives.

I may have posted this before but given the current discussion I've been told it's worth revisting. Footage of my first flight a season or two back on the 9m in winds about 10mph (don't let the sound of the wind fool you) with deep snow. As mentioned in this thread what it lacks in size it makes up in turn rate to build power. I've been riding the protos almost exclusively this winter.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H-SYGs-LQdE

If you go to my Youtube page you'll find footage of 12 and 15m (Black and Red)

Something I don't understand about R+D ?

The same kite seems to have been out on trail for over a year now it seems? That fits the R part . Is D done ?

Same with the Charger ? I demo'd one almost a full year before they came out.

Is a whole lot of the delay just a matter of getting the kites produced?

Being sure that you have the product dialed before bringing it to maket is one reason for delays. It's hard to produce enough protos and get them out to a diverse enough group to have them thoroughly tested. You need it tested by moderate use testers as well as testers that will push the product to it's limits. Especially if it's a item like this where flaws can be dangerous to the user or those around them. That takes time.

What may be great traits for one user may not be great for another so decisions concerning product focus need to be weighed. Do you go the direction of one user group or make compromises in hopes of attracting a broader range of users? Working that out takes time.

Finding out the weaknesses or even potential dangers of the product and getting that feedback from the testers is critical and also time consuming. Especially in the course of testing the proto is damaged or destroyed or if a tester is injured.

Then there's the whole marketing mess to deal with. Colors, names etc.

Pile this on top of the time needed for regular production of the current in line product and unless you have a huge group of people to draw from it can be extremely time consuming.

In my line of work I've seen prototypes that have been tested for 5 yrs that never make it to market. I've seen some stuff is awesome but too narrow a market to make it to production. Some just turns out to jbe just a poor idea after years of testing. Some stuff after testing is produced in small batches for show purposes but never actually put into production even though it's in the catalogs, reviews etc. The purpose was just to generate buzz.

I've had the 9m for a while. It's an awesome kite but she does have some issues that got me into trouble a few times but they have since been worked. The later versions I've been flying have not shown the issue in anyway. It's been a solid year since I got the 9m and others had been testing it before I did. Evolution takes time I guess.

Back to work for me.

Bladerunner, they've also been working on getting out both LEI kites and another kite I dunno if I'm allowed to discuss. The PhantomII was put at the back of the list so they could get out the tube kites soon I hope this helps

Bladerunner, they've also been working on getting out both LEI kites and another kite I dunno if I'm allowed to discuss. The PhantomII was put at the back of the list so they could get out the tube kites soon I hope this helps

Adam is being really thorough with his posts.:wink2:

He's right tho, there have been a lot of things going on at the same time that have taken time and resources away from other projects. At one point the program for this kite was put on hold in order to allow focus on the LEI.

I was very happy to hear that they picked it up again and have been moving forward with it.:singing:

Thanks !

Got it ! I am very interested in seeing these LEI's come out. 1st of all to give them a try but mostly so the Phanny II and depower foil can be brought out!

I like the idea of having novice riders try out the gear. I think there are a lot of us stuck at novice who think we are better than all that ! The largest part of the market is novice, I expect ?

I'm only novice when I'm around you guys.....otherwise I'm all Pro!

some of you must of seen the LEI at NABX

Didn't go. Where is it now?

I agree with you Blade. I think the vast majority of kiters fall between the beginner to advanced intermediate crowd. But if you look at the marketing (magazine ads etc.) Manufacturers are always pushing the "extreme" angle. Sure there's an element out there that are doing huge unhooked moves etc. but what percentile of kiters?

I think promoting kiting as an "Extreme" sport has been little self defeating. I think it's scared off more potential participants than it's attracted.

Anyway I'm getting off topic. I think it's important to get input from lower skill level riders as well as the mid and pro levels. If you get a positive response from the beginner/intermediate crowd AND Pro level riders then I think you know you have a really well rounded product that will have wide appeal.

At the same time if the low tier doesn't like it but the top riders do then you know you have a great high performance specific rig. Or if the top guys don't care for it and find it too tame the intermediates will probably love it.

I think this kite will appeal to a wide range of users. It is NOT an exact reincarnation of the old Phantom. If you get on it and expect it to feel and perform exactly like a Phantom you'll be dissapointed. BUT if you go in without and predisposed notion of how the kite is going to feel and just fly it and learn it's personality I think you will be very, very impressed.

I've never been on an Arc with so much versatility.

Figured Chris Krug was out chasing wind. Two questions, rolled into one:

Will he beat Petri L.'s 73.5 mph, and if so, which kite will it be on?

krumly

Yes Krumly, very busy lately getting the last bits of ice when I can.

In answer to your question probably not this season. No time left.

Which kite? Dunno, but I do know it will be a Peter Lynn.:tumble:

Been riding every chance we get and in some really great places. New places with LOTS OF ROOM TO RUN.

Room has been severly hampering my quest for 80mph.

ive never flown a phantom and dont have much experience with pl arcs but i have a venom that im still learning on but the first time i ever saw a phantom at the buggy bash i was in aw at how cool it looks its definitely something i would like to buy in the future would be cool with double sided graphics

also i saw somone said somthing about inflatable spars i think thats a great idea because they are so small you could probably inflate them by mouth