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Originally posted by snobdr So are we saying light wind riding the foils win and in every other condition LEIs prevail? Lets not forget that the light wind master the flysurfer SA is 2550-2700 bucks. thats alot of cash to get out on those light wind days. If i want out that bad ill ride a small kite and a surfboard.

Certainly not when it comes to the possibility of leaks, among other comparisons. I'm not sure this is one that can be driven into a corner very convincingly. This mouse keeps running in circles around the room. LEI's prevail for SOME PEOPLE in certain categories. Foil guys don't want anything shoved down their throats either.

The bottom line I guess is to have fun with what you have. Use what works best for you. There isn't a bad or inferior kind of kite, just kites with different attributes. I talk to kiteboarding friends about the benefits of my arcs, but always with the tone that I want to go out with them to learn about the inflatable kites they use and to show them the benefits that the arcs have, not to put them down for the type kites they use.

More like LEIs prevail for MOST people in MOST categories.

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Originally posted by snobdr So are we saying light wind riding the foils win and in every other condition LEIs prevail?

Not at all. All kites may or not be good depending on a lot of factors , conditions, riders experience and style.

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Lets not forget that the light wind master the flysurfer SA is 2550-2700 bucks. thats alot of cash to get out on those light wind days.

I got my SA2 19m used so less than 2k, but for me it's all worth it. They sure will go cheaper when the speed3 comes out in september. But the Speed1 17m (modded) can still do the job for a fair price.

A brand new cabrinha crossbow 13m 2010 sells for above 2K$us anyway

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If i want out that bad ill ride a small kite and a surfboard.

Yes but still with a small foil if you a not too heavy, but not all surfboards have great low end. DOOR or race boards are much better in that field.

Bloah started this thread with a list why LEI is better. No one seems to agrue any of those points, All i hear is bladders leak and foils are better light wind.
Only the cab 16m is over 2k (2139) so its a good bit less then the 2550 of the SA and an 07 Cab can be had for 500-700.

Quote:

Originally posted by snobdr Bloah started this thread with a list why LEI is better. No one seems to agrue any of those points, All i hear is bladders leak and foils are better light wind.

That's true if you just ignore or trivialize most of the posts above.

hmmmm lets see
Stability...no comments
Top end..... a few agreed LEI better
Low end... i think we all agree on this Foil
Depower... no comments... oh wait link to lame comparison at one speed no kite sizes.
Wind range.... no comments... except saying foils work in light wind
Safety....no comments
Turning speed... one comment that foils are slow turning
Inflation... we all know this answer.. foils

Lot of light wind /upwind performance , some durability


Maybe i have to ready between the lines to understand what u mean BB

Quote:

Originally posted by snobdr Bloah started this thread with a list why LEI is better. No one seems to agrue any of those points, All i hear is bladders leak and foils are better light wind. Only the cab 16m is over 2k (2139) so its a good bit less then the 2550 of the SA and an 07 Cab can be had for 500-700.

Snobdr....

What's your goal here? I think you're the only guy here trying to push the idea that "LEI's are better overall"

I think if you look at the posts above you'll see that most of the people who have responded fly both Flysurfers AND LEI's. I think I can speak for a lot of people here when I say. We know what LEI's fly like and we still prefer flysurfers for some conditions. NOT ALL CONDITIONS but that's one of the great things about not being sponsored. you can fly whatever you want. mix it up. whatever. you're not locked into one type or the other. So why bother trying to write off one type of kite. for all we know everything will change again as soon as the next model comes out on both sides.

I have heard personally from Armin Harich at Flysurfer that the new speed 3 will NOT sacrifice low end I can't wait to try one!

Edit:

Snobdr: you must have missed powerzone's post where he posted the link for a scientific analysis of a C-kite, Bow kite and Speed 2.

Quote:

Originally posted by snobdr ...Only the cab 16m is over 2k (2139) so its a good bit less then the 2550 of the SA and an 07 Cab can be had for 500-700.

umm alright first of all that is like comparing apples and oranges.

MSRP SA vs used 07 Cabrinha price? c'mon man... were smarter then that.

People definitely pay a premium for foils but if you shop around you can usually find one for a better deal then a new SLE. I paid less for my P4 15m then I would have paid for a new Slingshot Rev. Same thing with buying my 10m P4, 12m P2. I'm talking kites that are new condition demo's with full warranty's that have only been flown maybe a half dozen times.

btw I bought my Thruster used 3 months ago for $500 and I will already be taking a big loss on it. Even though it is in the exact same condition.

SA2 19m's go for 1500-1700 on the used market.....SA1.5 17m go for about $750. unfortunately for new kite buyers the Silver arrow kites seem to have the worst resale because of the misconception that they wear out quicker.

OH OH! almost forgot. one of the dirty tricks LEI company's play is showing you a low low price of "kite only" remember flysurfers come ready to fly and the new ones come with an awesome bar that I would say is better then most of the LEI bars I've ran across.

Because in general LEI is a better all around kite. they are more versital,and handle more conditions, Ive seen Foils recommended to people when they obviously wernt the right choice. Some here are one sided, all foil, cant see outside the box.
If foils were so good then why try to immitate an LEIs performance? Foil kite have there niche. They work extremely well in some conditions, just not as broad a range as an LEI.

i read a KITESURF article last night and the guy was using a SYNergy and he stated he was one of the few that liked riding PL. some magazine writer /rider in bali doin a wave thing

any way he said he " like the way the kite just disappeared while riding"

the rasta caught me in the first pic and i was thinking..to look through this flashy uk mag with a S-P-A-M-L-I-N-K-billoion tube kite pics and ads out of the 4-5 issue i have very little is even mentioned about foils but they are in there(P4, NEO, and a stamp size pic of a charger) the tubes totally dominant product .

i totally know the disappearing act with my pl's and could be the same with any decent rig. some rider talent and experience allows for this.

tubes are ultra easy and very safe to use even for the green rider.

but some folks can just detect the "mechanical" flinty feel they produce and prefer a softer feel, not less power, just the rate upon entry into the power band.

my street rod is pure power but my neck has had it! i much prefer my Bentley GT
both very powerful units just the delivery is different.

forum is in an up roar folks everybody jump in ... fun with opinions

FINE!!!! Here are my opinions on these and i'll give my own score

Quote:

Originally posted by snobdr hmmmm lets see Stability...no comments

Peter lynns win i'm sorry, i used to fly my 10m venom in 35mph gusty as crap wind and it was very nice. Flysurfers lose flat out for gusty strong winds. Modern LEIs have fantastic stability as well, but this has only really come to be since 2007 IMO.
1 point ARCS
1 point LEIs
0 points Flysurfer

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Top end..... a few agreed LEI better

Yup, LEIs and ARCS wind, this is the same as gusty wind UNDER say 15mph i would vote for my flysurfer or an arc as they stay up in the air much easier. The problem i have with flysurfers in high winds is the gusts make the kite really flop around quite a lot because it's shape isn't solid and i've had them fall out of the sky a lot, but never in lower wind.

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Low end... i think we all agree on this Foil

Yup. And they aren't that expensive, since you cant buy them in most shops you never really pay retail price.

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Depower... no comments... oh wait link to lame comparison at one speed no kite sizes.

The fact is flysurfer have more depower than any other kite out there. When fully depowered they feel a bit crappy apart from the psycho4 which actually gets better when depowered. Out of all the kites i've tried the psycho4 definitely wins for depower by a pretty large margin, however, i don't like the kite itself

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Wind range.... no comments... except saying foils work in light wind Safety....no comments

Everyone knows the safety on flysurfers is excellent, and the self rescue i think is excellent as well, i just swim to the kite and then grab the two wingtips and it pulls me to shore.
WIND RANGE... i keep going on about the speed2 but i use this thing all the time so to me that means it has the best wind range. I won't even consider getting out my LEIs till 20mph, the most usable windrange for where i live definitely goes to flysurfer. I use them in 5-25mph which is 90% of the wind i get here.

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Turning speed... one comment that foils are slow turning Inflation... we all know this answer.. foils

10m psycho4 turned faster than my 10m naish helix in 20mph of wind and about the same as a 13m fuel 2008, that's all i say there as generally i agree, foils are much slower. Whether you think that is a bad thing or not is entirely your own preference...

So adding up...

ARCS: 4 points
LEIS: 4 points
FLYSURFERS: 4 points

Have fun

Round and round we go, where we stop... HAH, that'd imply that it'll ever stop... :flaming:

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Snobdr: you must have missed powerzone's post where he posted the link for a scientific analysis of a C-kite, Bow kite and Speed 2.

You mean the lame comparison at one speed, no kite sizes listed? Was a super review...

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umm alright first of all that is like comparing apples and oranges. MSRP SA vs used 07 Cabrinha price? c'mon man... were smarter then that.

HMMM.. 09 Cab 16M $2139 09 SA 15M $2550 both 09 both new, isnt that apples to apples?
I just stated what you can get an 07 Cab for.

Never said you were stupid

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Originally posted by snobdr Why do those on this site try to jam foils down your throat? "Its all the same, just different."

I have only ever felt like one person on this forum was EVER been trying to jam something down my throat.

Your constant negative attidude is so out of place here.

Bloah, Dom, Tridude and a few others opinions are ones I feel I can respect. I have followed them as they tried and gave honest feedback about there experience. These people have enriched this forum . Like a friend. Friends I can and have bought gear from.

Your attidude is what is wrong with LIE's on this forum. Otherwise LEI's are the leader by a long shot !

Raspberries are better than strawberries. Anyone who disagrees with me is wrong and possibly stupid and maybe a liar. But I still like strawberries an awful lot too.

And flying kites is a lot of fun also.

Now we are getting somewhere
Thanks Domdino....
On depower My 9m Caution answer, and my Ozone 13M depower totally. well we will say 99% depower. And thats not pulling a safety.
A Cab also depowers totally but the crappy link posted implied that it dosent. Just crashes while still pulling. OK.......

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Originally posted by kiteNH Raspberries are better than strawberries. Anyone who disagrees with me is wrong and possibly stupid and maybe a liar. But I still like strawberries an awful lot too. And flying kites is a lot of fun also.

HERETIC!!! Not that it's that important, because blueberries are better than both! And kites are important! Not FUN! ...wait, umm... What?!? :P

You guys obviously haven't tried Kiwi!

Blade you just take it as negative..

"Its all the same, just different" is negative hmmmm?

Ive seen foils pushed on new kiteboarders when they are not the best choice. Why?

I have no attitude, You just dont like me.

I just want peoples opinions, on what was put out there. Answer the questions, ya know.


MMMMMMMMMMMM Kiwiiiii..

I could care less if your a foil guy and thats all you will ever ride, more power to you. Ill still ride with ya.
Its all the same right?

I like them ALL

Just not as JAM !!!!!
:bigok:

While we are at it !

Has anyone noticed how ( just like on snow ) . 50% + of the riders in Carl' videos from G.B. are flying inflatos on land

I was in NY and VT on snow 50/50
Buggy club 90 foil/ 10 LEI
Hatteras 99 LEI
But this adds nothing to the mix
So whats your point Blade?
Do you have anything on topic to add?

Bladerunner is Powerkiteforum's mr. positive :D i think he's been through more kites than most of us...
You do come off a little antagonistic snobdr, probably just your typing tone
Simply saying "Because in general LEI is a better all around kite." , "Some here are one sided, all foil, cant see outside the box." will obviously annoy some people, especially as most of the people here have extensively ridden both based on what i've seen them talk about and what i've seen them sell to me and me sell to them :D

funny conversation :D

That other than in the buggy world LEI's are flown by more than 1/2 of the riders .

When I showed up at the Montana Snowkite Rodeo my 1st winter on land in 06 I found out I was almost alone flying Fixed Bridle kites. I also learned why !

Still I had my 1st full on snowkite experience and had a blast with my 3m trainer in 26mph winds.

The Waroos and Instinct kites ruled ! The Frenzies and Phantoms and Speeds all amazed me . I learned a LOT that trip. I woke up to the fact LEI's had arrived on land , now that they could be easily relaunched. That the local land crew could stick with handles for their buggies but I wanted something different.
I also learned that like the founder of the Rodeo, I wanted to ride + fly everything and do everything I can to spread the spark he set in me !

Where is that car I'm waiting for ?

I have been stuck with my Mother right at the wild fire line that is happening in British Columbia. I have been dreading wind for 3 days. Now I am home and am jonesing BAaaaaad !!!!

I'm SURE I can get the Syn filled in this wind :ticking::ticking:

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most of the people here have extensively ridden both

I want to hear from those people, On the points that Bloah started, and other points about flying a specific kind of kite. Something that will add to the thread.
Not that the people in G.B fly foils, or He said it flys better. Thats not adding to anything. Just pointless.

I want to hear real experences people have had.

I like my kites because of the super depower, I like my kites because they relaunch quickly after eating it. I have used them Kiteboarding, Snowkiting, Kitelandboarding, and even in a buggy. Ive had bladders blow out, ive also fixed them, Ive helped my buds untangle their FS after a failed launch. Ive flown a few foils. ive flown lots of LEIS.
I try to add my experences

alright so people keep mentioning price....

so here's how I see it.

being in the business of producing foils is a bad business to be in when compared to selling LEI's

here's why:

LEI's. most of the design work and patents done with LEI's including Hybrids C-kites and Bows were all done by the same people. those designs are sold to the manufacturers and then they tweak there individual products to perform differently. this keeps there research and development department small and costs down low. LEI's are also WAY cheaper to manufacture so there is a higher profit margin again.

Company's like Flysurfer and PeterLynn end up doing there own research which is very expensive. almost a labor of love you might say. the kites are also more expensive to manufacture 1 because there is more material and 2 because there is more assembly required. in addition peter lynn and flysurfer are both very small company's. Cabrinha is the worlds largest kiteboarding manufacturer. They are so big that a lot of other brands actually have there gear made through Cabrinha's factory's. This gives them what I like to call the Walmart price point advantage simply because there volumes are so much larger they are able to sell at a lower price point.

now to use the walmart analogy again.

would you buy a wallyworld schwinn bike for $350 that will work "okay" in all conditions or would you buy a Specialized for $2000 at your local bike shop?

most people will buy the wallyworld schwinn because it will do enough for them and they aren't serious enough about the sport to justify the larger purchase. but those who want the best will tend to pay the extra dollar for the better rig.

My strategy is buy the 2 year old Specialized that someone paid full price for and never used for the cost of the new wallyworld bike

just my 2 cents.

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Originally posted by nwsurfwakeskate My strategy is buy the 2 year old Specialized that someone paid full price for and never used for the cost of the new wallyworld bike

INDEED ! I have not paid full msrp for any kite. I will this year, but only because I know what I want, and it aint available used.

BTW.... I like foils, i dont care what anybody says. I also like my suzuki hatchback, my eggs over easy, red plum jam, and ever-so-slightly underdone brownies.

But you will never catch me telling you that these things are better than yours, even if thats what i genuinely think.

Too much talking.... too little flying.

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Originally posted by snobdr Quote: most of the people here have extensively ridden both I want to hear from those people, On the points that Bloah started, and other points about flying a specific kind of kite. Something that will add to the thread. Not that the people in G.B fly foils, or He said it flys better. Thats not adding to anything. Just pointless. I want to hear real experences people have had. I like my kites because of the super depower, I like my kites because they relaunch quickly after eating it. I have used them Kiteboarding, Snowkiting, Kitelandboarding, and even in a buggy. Ive had bladders blow out, ive also fixed them, Ive helped my buds untangle their FS after a failed launch. Ive flown a few foils. ive flown lots of LEIS. I try to add my experences

Alright here's a list of what I have flown:

04 Cabrinha Access 12m
04 Slingshot Fuel 17m
04 North Toro 10m
09 Ocean Rodeo Rise 12m
09 Ocean Rodeo Rise 8m
08 Eclipse Thruster 10m
07 Best Waroo 7m
03 Flysurfer Warrior 7m
07 Flysurfer Silverarrow 1.5 17m
08 Flysurfer Pulse 2 12m
09 Flysurfer Psycho 4 10m
09 Flysurfer Psycho 4 15m
08 Flysurfer Speed 2 12m
08 Flysurfer Silver Arrow 2 19m
05 Peterlynn Phantom 12m
08 Peterlynn Synergy 10m

With the Flysurfers. Something I have learned over time is that they CAN fly like crap or they can be the best kite I have ever laid hands on depending on if they are kept in tune or not.

if you aren't going to bother keeping your kite tuned then you are probably better off flying ARC's or LEI's

But dylanj i want to hear why yours is better! Have you had experences with both?

Sold the LEIs because I couldn't self launch them as easily, safely and reliably as my foils. The PL self launch is a bit of a compromise between the two but I'm OK with it since it still lets me do what I could never do alone with an LEI.

I saw relaunch mentioned here but not self launch. AND to be fair, I did see a BOW / SLE flier self launch impressively this past winter in strong winds but ultimately I don't wanna carry a pump around. It's enough that I unhook the lines from the PLs.

My 2¢ - why I fly what I fly. My take - I could care less what you're flying. Don't judge me by what I'm flying and I bet we can share a cool one afterwards. Who knows....we might even try each other's gear out!