One of my major problems with killers is that they are constantly in the way. That or I have looped the kiteand want to flip back but must loop or live with twisted killers.
I think my main motivator in not using them is avoiding the agro.

Am I the only one who finds them a proper pain in the :moon:

Quote:

Originally posted by Bladerunner Am I the only one who finds them a proper pain in the :moon:

I do too... but I still find them useful once in a while...

maybe I haven't quite outgrown them yet!!

well, at least we can all happily agree to disagree!

This is why everyone should be flying de-powers ... the most safeties in the sport ;-)

Just thought I would throw some gas on the fire

I have no problems with letting go of a kite if I'm getting scared ... but I don't like the idea of chasing the bugger downwind, that's why I wear KKs. Had to do it once, nearly gave me a heart attack chasing my Rebble as it gently floating downwind, the distance of 2 football fields - long ways

And what's more, I think it's irresponsible to NOT wear them or at leash a leash of some kind - who knows where the kite could end up and what trouble it could cause for the public? In the story above, the Reb was heading towards a fairly major road with HT power lines just on the other side :eek: in my defense, that was before I knew such things as leashes or KKs existed ...

I have more problems with KKs when packing & unpacking than I do with them when I'm flying ... although if I put them on too tight they pinch the nerves or blood supply or something and my hands go numb. Apparently I have thick wrists cos they only JUST fit and are difficult to put on one handed

Anybody notice that depowers have two releases: one to release the powerlines; one to jettison the kite? I wonder why they do that.
For all of you who swear by kite killers, may your change of mind not include hurting someone else.
Good luck.
S
P.S. Kitejumper the Reflex is not designed for the use of killers: they may work, they may not.

I don't use them. Never have never will. To dangerous.
Here is some kiteflying rules: Don't fly in overpowered conditions, don't fly with highways down wind, don't fly with powerlines downwind, don't fly with people down wind. If you don't have an area that meets those conditions don't fly.
Pretty simple.
Power kite flying is a very dangerous sport
Guess I am getting to old and set in my ways after nearly 12 years of continous power kite flying with no serious injuries or problems.

Scott

Quote:

Originally posted by Drewculous i was actually comparing this discussion to seatbelts in my head over lunch... lol

Rather than seat belts in a car I think the analogy is more like tying your wrists to the handlebars of your motorcycle. :wee: Do think this would be a good safety feature?
S

Quote:

Originally posted by Scudley Quote: Originally posted by Drewculous i was actually comparing this discussion to seatbelts in my head over lunch... lol Rather than seat belts in a car I think the analogy is more like tying your wrists to the handlebars of your motorcycle. :wee: Do think this would be a good safety feature? S

well said!!

Quote:

Originally posted by Drewculous Quote: Originally posted by Krohn1999 I wonder what it would be like to get yanked out the back of a buggy by my wrists because my kite got a little to close to the goal posts??? lol, dude.. you do know killers go on the brake lines? I've never had a killed kite generate enough power to even make me take a step forward

I don't know what kind of KS-P-A-M-L-I-N-K-s you use but I have never seen a set with built in brakes for the buggy.

Trust me if you are crusing along in your buggy wearing KS-P-A-M-L-I-N-K-S any your kite snags a tree or a fence or a GOAL POST. you are in danger of being yanked out by your wrists.

I feel as an impartial beginner I should inject some views here. I can see both sides of the argument, and power kiting is dangerous with or without KS-P-A-M-L-I-N-K-s if done improperly/stupidly. I'm reading this thread as a beginner looking for advice, but all I'm getting from it is there are a group who use them and think its dangerous not to, and a group who don't use them and think its dangerous to use them. Both parties seem to be bordering on the classic arrogance of "I'm right, your wrong, so shut it!". I've seen many arguments, on many forums, or differing subjects (photography, cars etc) end like this, and its less than helpful for those looking for info.

Everyone will have different opinions, but nobody is right or wrong. With regards to KS-P-A-M-L-I-N-K-s, I can see the dangers they may cause, and the dangers they may prevent.

So, based on what I've read here's what I intend to do when I pick up my first 4-line foil (most likely the rage 3.5). The field I have found 10 minutes away from my home is very open in the middle of a valley with very clean wind. It has a public right of way along side the low speed local railway lines across the top it. So far on every trip there wind has been blowing away from the path/railway eliminating that as a danger, the only thing down wind are fences mores fields and some trees here and there. So with the only real danger being me losing/damaging my first kite I will wear KS-P-A-M-L-I-N-K-s for peace of mind until I have a bit of experience and confidence flying the kite. If I travel to any other location before my confidence and control skills are up I will have to evaluate the situation and make a sensible decision on whether they should be used, or if I should even fly, depending on the factors at the time.

I will then, in time, make my own decision on whether to use them or not. I will also advise other newbies the same, if you can find a location like the one above where the only danger is losing the kite, then use common sense with the wind speed and KS-P-A-M-L-I-N-K-s to stop the kite getting away. At a cost around £12-15 for a pair, I think any newbie with a big-ish kite should pick a pair up and use them (in the right situation) and make up their own mind on them, then bang them on eBay if they don't like them!

Just my 2p worth, as a viewing newbie. Common sense is the biggest safety feature any kiter can have, anything else is additional. The next biggest thing a newbie can have is sensible and impartial advice from experienced kiters.

So how about for the noobs like me, instead of another argument we simply compile a list of possible ups and downs of using KS-P-A-M-L-I-N-K-s in different locations/situations.

How about we start with these:

When buggying on a beach with several other buggyers KS-P-A-M-L-I-N-K-s can be very dangerous.

When static flying in an open field with no others around you KS-P-A-M-L-I-N-K-s will most likely stop your kite blowing away if you loose your grip.

Rant over, hope you are still reading

Paul

I'm not saying the non wearers are wrong but most of the scenarios used to illustrate why not to wear them border on the fringe of absurd. I'm not going to be going 35mph (I've been 34.8 in wide open spaces) with any immovable or live object under my lines. I would feel another buggier doing the same was being extremely reckless. I'm not going to be going fast enough past a soccer goal post that I can't see things going awry enough in advance to not be able to stop the buggy. If I stuck to flying at places where my released kite couldn't land in a road, powerline, or barbed wire fence, I'd have to drive 45 minutes for a quickie flight which means I would just think about kiting instead. Situations allow me to "live on the edge" from time to time and not use them but I feel uncomfortable not having them on.

all these strong opinions mean the KK issue is getting its best workout ever!

well done...

my 2 cents this time around: yes, it's an individual issue. Going through the pros and cons systematically might be worth doing, if only so people can make better informed decisions for themselves.

I think we would all agree that trying to lay down the law one side or the other would be a bit absurd.

Quote:

Originally posted by paulcoleman When buggying on a beach with several other buggyers KS-P-A-M-L-I-N-K-s can be very dangerous. When static flying in an open field with no others around you KS-P-A-M-L-I-N-K-s will most likely stop your kite blowing away if you loose your grip. Rant over, hope you are still reading Paul

I think you summed up what kite killers do very well. They will save a kite but very little else. To my mind that is not a safety feature. About all they will save you from is: losing or damaging your kite and tangled lines.
It really p1sses me off that people present them to newbies as a something that will make you or anyone else safer. I think it is damned irresponsible.
S

I think KS-P-A-M-L-I-N-K-s have a place in the sport. I just don't think it is as black and white as some do.

I think they are O.K. for beginers so they will feel free to let go at 1st. The problem begins when you start to consider them a safety to fly beyond your skill level.

I was taught to be in control ( or re-gain control ) of the kite as my 1st and best option. Almost ALL of the people I look up to in this sport have learned to fly without. I don't think I have had to let go of a kite once a year since I started and not at all in the last couple. ( I am mostly on depower now )

Add to all this the way they get tangled up and are often in the way and I don't miss them.

My angle for hooking a newbie in with kite killers is to "encourage" them to turn loose if they get in trouble so they dont get hurt because they are reluctant to turn loose of the kite you just mentioned cost $600. If they hang on AND don't have the necessary skills to fly out of trouble then they leave skin behind and that isn't necessary. I can't remember the last time I went to kite killers but I guarantee you it was because of gusts that weren't of the level I observed when picking my kite out of the bag. Maybe their best benefit IS to save the kite if all else fails and you turn loose/get the handles ripped from your fingers. I've never felt endangered by having them on though and can't see myself getting into any of the scenarios mentioned against wearing them. This discussion has made me more likely to allow myself to fly without them if conditions allow though.

I think it really interessting that no one comments on my idea!! Just let one handle go and the problem is over!!! I guess there is nothing to say against it!! COOL Krohn1999 had a good Idea!!!! this is the way I teach here, If you have a problem let one go. and normally after 1 hour my students are wearing a harness anyway and then there is no need to think about KS-P-A-M-L-I-N-K-s.

I would like to change the name of them from"Kite Killers" to "kiter killers"

krohn, your idea would work in theory, but there are still the times like beamer said when the kite can plain just get ripped from your hands. Mother nature has her moments, and when she does I hope I have my kS-P-A-M-L-I-N-K-s on!

This argument will go on till the end of time. So for now we all just have to accept that some like them, some do not.

if its a safe wind, not gusty and chilled then im sure that you could fly without but if ianything else.. strap em up, even if not for your own safetey lol, it stops the kite flying away lol, i always wear killers, common sense.

When i started flying i didnt use or know what killers were lol, im glad i use them now though.

I don't use them either.
I kind of wonder if its demographically the same in certain areas?
I know our group up here at Garry Point don't use them and I havn't seen newbies wearing them either.

Ken(K3)

Quote:

Originally posted by Krohn1999 Just let one handle go and the problem is over!!! I guess there is nothing to say against it!! I would like to change the name of them from"Kite Killers" to "kiter killers"

you never have something like this happen? kite doesn't flag out but instead powers up around one power line and starts doing a spin that keeps it in the air and pulling...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L3_TDZUO2QA


Something similar happened to me once with a 6.5, a power line got sliced and the whole kite started spinning, it came down but slowly and the only thing I could do was dig in my feet and hang on to the other handle. (too many trees downwind, didn't want to let go)

I'm not trying to make the argument come down on one side or the other, but I do associate letting go of one handle with this "death spiral" kite behavior.

just wondering what your take is on this...

Quote:

Originally posted by furbowski you never have something like this happen? kite doesn't flag out but instead powers up around one power line and starts doing a spin that keeps it in the air and pulling... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L3_TDZUO2QA

a death spiral can only happen if you have unequal tension to both sides of the kite. In the video I bet they were using handles with a stroop connecting them and they lost one handle. BUGGY RULE NUMBER (I cant remember the number)
If you don't wear a harness don't have a stroop hanging between your handles!
If you let one side go then you have no tension on one side and the kite will flag out.
If you loose a main line like you said you still have tension on the brake line and then away she spins.

thanks... that's very clear.

the strop between the handles is the part i didn't get earlier, and possibly what's going on with the video above. it has not happened to me yet. now maybe it won't.:D

and yes that's exactly what happened with the 6.5, it wasn't all that powered, but the wind wasn't really doing its thing well.

I reckon the unequal tension on the handles thing is what's making this bowtie so difficult:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vpEwZV1EV1U

(have to wait a bit for it though on this video.)

what do you think?

My ace 8 likes to bowtie more than any other kite I've got. I've never had this kind of trouble with it. but I don't fly it in those winds, either.

I had to let go a handle once while jumping my 6.5, I messed up doing a redirect and got yanked sideways, lost my balance between the handles,
and dropped a handle so I could use my arm to protect my ribs. I have it on video actually

The kite flagged out yes with no pull, I always thought the reason it didn't spiral was because it was close to the edge of the window and pretty much almost stalled out by the time I let go.

but now i think the complete tension on one line and full flag out of the kite also made it work without problems...

I've always felt jumping on handles without kite killers is safest, but when the winds are gusty strong enough to be edgy AND there are trees downwind, then the kitekillers come out. Another location would be safer but my choices are limited here in hong kong.

You can also get a spin if your kite has a cross bridal too keep the other side powered up.

yeah, that happens with my HQ symphonies, it's how I get my tightest spins out of them.

... wonder if it's just the buggy guys who are against the KKs?

Quote:

Originally posted by Kamikuza ... wonder if it's just the buggy guys who are against the KKs?

In Vancouver it is pretty much everybody . Not strictly buggy people. Here we teach people to control the kite as their 1st option.

Quote:

Originally posted by Bladerunner Quote: Originally posted by Kamikuza ... wonder if it's just the buggy guys who are against the KKs? In Vancouver it is pretty much everybody . Not strictly buggy people. Here we teach people to control the kite as their 1st option.

I feel a little talked down to when stuff like that is said. Maybe deservingly so but nevertheless. I take some pride in my kite handling and have been complimented more than once. But you can't control a kite if a rogue gust comes along and rips the handles out of your hands before you knew what happened. I fly my handles in my fingertips to allow longer sessions. Every handgrip sport I've been involved in dictated that you keep light hands instead of a deathgrip. Consequently, an overpowering gust can and has ripped the handles out of my hands without me making a conscious decision to do so.

I toyed with certain disaster yesterday and flew my Blurr without KKs for an hour and a half static. It was manageable winds the whole time so no releases. I was getting car work done and my field was only a half mile away so I hiked over and had a big time with it fiddling with AOA settings.

Quote:

Originally posted by Kamikuza ... wonder if it's just the buggy guys who are against the KKs?

Hmmm... I like to buggy and I use KS-P-A-M-L-I-N-K-s since I run in public, shared-use environments. Yeah, I will be the first to say that they are a real pain in the ass. But... .. nevermind.

Quote:

I fly my handles in my fingertips to allow longer sessions.

Ditto. I've had handles ripped out of my hands on a launch, even when I was ready for it. No KK? See Spot run. RUN Spot RU-UUUUUN!
Happens very rarely, but then isn't that what safety gear is for - those rare occasions?