Quote:

Originally posted by WELDNGOD Stan,I think what the guys are sayin is ..... There is not a kite out there that can pick you up and just hover. it's not that easy. And A kite that can pick you up like that ,can and will hurt you eventually. Is there anyone here that can say they have not been taught a lesson or two. At 60 ,lessons will probably come at high cost. I'm not sure you can handle that,remember you can't get a 50 lb. buggy out of a vehicle.

*******************
I always welcome cautionary reasoning and logic to challenge my thinking about this endeavor as you've stated. Let me say that I'm approaching kite flying and all flying with the concept of JuJitsu. You're probably familiar with that martial art's strategy which is to use the opponent's own energy against himself or herself. That's how I'm approaching this endeavor. I can lift 50-lbs, but I know that since I'm older, the risk factor of pulling muscles or getting a hernia is that much more, so I'm choosing to avoid the excessive strains of labor that are known to likely cause injury, and I'm choosing to let the wind do the work when possible, or I'll find some alternative.

Buggying, as I see it, requires a lot of space and having the kite at odd angles (angles of strain) to the driver-pilot. To keep injury out of consideration from awkward pulling, I don't want to subject myself to excessive odd-angle straining, so I'd have to buggy according to the restrictions I've established for myself.

I am looking for the kite to do my lifting for me, and I believe this is possible. The Synergy 15m appears to be such a kite, and I've been told a Guerilla is much the same. I know better than to try to maintain a wrestling match with a gusty wind in any kite over 3m simply because I'm going to lose in a short time. I would rather fly a smaller kite, say a 2m, in a high wind than try to fly a larger kite and have to quit early. I get more flight time that way. A lot of younger Aces go for the maximum muscle power they can use... I prefer sustaining the fun over a longer period of time by limiting my exertion.

The times when I've had any close calls is when I've known the wind to be excessive, as I'm sure most of us have done at different times. Younger guys and gals tend to get headstrong and try what they shouldn't, and that's how people get into trouble. Yes, I'm human, too, and that's how I know these things. In my approach to air, I do not want to assume questionable conditions -- not saying I wouldn't be tempted at various times, but it's my objective to try to avoid such risk. I think that can be done. Balloonists have a way of knowing when their conditions are right for their flying. The successful hang-gliders know their limitations, too. I think prudence in any activity is a matter of personal determination, skill, and self-discipline. In my reasoning, there's no reason why we kite flyers and paragliders can't exercise the same restraints as [the] more disciplined characters.

I am grateful for your input and open to any rebuttal.

Quote:

Originally posted by doneski For the best in hanging out at low altitude, check this out. Paragliding over dunes in France. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n_-CpO2uZ2I

**************
My very sincere thanks for this video. You've hit the nail. This is exactly what I'm hoping to do. Now I just have to make it happen. Again, thank you very much!!!!

I will use this video to communicate to others what I'm striving to do. Now you're famous!

I think you are part right. With my 15m Synergy I can just stand there , swing it from 11 to 2 and back. Pull in the bar and I'm up for a nice float but it includes a good downwind ride most often. It means a relatively safe running landing but is potentialy dangerous.

I still tend to think you would get that gentle float with less potential for it to all go wrong kiting a paraglider ? When training these folks run upwind and leap up using a park bench. The combo can give them 5 ++ seconds of free float ! :Ange09:

I have a paraglider and several kites. When the winds are low enough to kite the paraglider it produces some very safe lift. I don't know if the pic will work but flying in 8mph or less I could lift my feet up and hang for a few second in the park near my house. I don't remember how windy it was but I think maybe around 5mph. I think if you are going to do this you will need a large kite and low wind. Higher winds with smaller kites to me seem like they might be too much danger. Good Luck!





This was like doing a pull up and I floated down after about 2 seconds

More fun stuff for Stan the Man:
More para dune flying: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K_snguy_cu4
Paraglider used as snow kite: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7_Dt-TSlv80
Ozone para video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=33nP5Rm0cu8&feature=relat...

any idea on how much one of those para-gliding rigs costs...? looks like something i'd like to try as well..?

I came to thinking today that depending on where you are in Texas you may not have the nice smooth winds that you absolutely NEED to pull off the kind of stuff you want !

Inland winds aren't usually smooth and can really screw you . :bouncing:

Back to the Synergy ! :dunno:

If you shop around and find one , a non flyable ( repaired ) paraglider can be pretty cheap. Flyable ones .... not so much !

Quote:

Originally posted by cheezycheese any idea on how much one of those para-gliding rigs costs...? looks like something i'd like to try as well..?

Sorry, I walked into a special deal and don't know what one would normaly cost. BR is right and try and get a repaired one but don't jump off a building with it.:o I think I have seen them on ebay new for about $3500

I have recently replied privately to two cherished colleagues who have offered their honesty for my benefit regarding my enigma of hanging air via kiting vs. paragliding. All of your opinions have meant a great deal to me. I thought I would post my current reflections to what has been offered thus far to open these points up for discussion.

I sincerely hope no one will be offended by a differing opinion, as it is not, or ever will be my intent, to embarrass anyone or put anyone down. I would hope we are all are here to learn. It is my belief the better input will prevail and we all benefit. I credit those pilots who are willing to assume high risk as most of do during our youthful days, but as we all gain experience, we typically yield at some point to the saying, "The more we play, we pay."

[Beginning]
I've been weighing some other realisms, comparing 'hanging air' by kite vs. paraglider. See if you agree with my points below:

Pros and Cons:

1. Kiting is more easily accessible than paragliding in that paragliding would require finding cushy hills with gentle slopes or dunes. This would require far more travel to remote regions to enjoy the sport and it is limited by available location far more that kiting. Kite hanging, I believe, can be accomplished in parks or anywhere in the world where there's wind, at any time. Paragliding would require far more coordination.

2. Practicing paragliding in more remote areas would be higher risk, being higher off the ground, and medical relief would typically be much farther away. Injury would be far more complicated in a remote region than in a local park.

3. Paragliding requires return to the point of origin to retrieve the car, or return transportation would have to be coordinated with colleagues.

4. Kiting can be practiced alone, whereas paragliding would best be performed with other people to provide a safety factor.

5. Motorized paragliding, while preferred by some to gain and maintain altitude, is noisy and would not appeal to my appreciation for serenity while enjoying flying. Additionally, I would guess that the noise could eventually impair one's hearing. My hearing depletion due to my aging doesn't need any assistance, thank you. I know I don't want to depend on having to maintain an engine to fly, or the expense.

6. Having recently sold my parachute, I know chutes require frequent periodic inspections. I would guess that paragliding equipment, and gliding, itself, would have far more regulatory restrictions and certification requirements than kiting. In other words, "The Hassle Factor" would likely be far greater pursuing paragliding than kiting as there would definitely be a higher emphasis on equipment maintenance. [I hope I'm wrong, here, but Idon't think so.]

7. I am not open to wanting to be off the ground higher than I want to incur and survive impact. I've determined my max to be two to three feet, unless over water. Then, again, height can play a major role in recovery. I know some aces can glide and flare, landing upright on their feet, but sometimes they land in trees or other undesirable locations, even falling farther to the ground without gliding!

8. It has been pointed out to me that it is likely that paragliding would be more expensive to pursue than kite hanging. Based on the need for personal instruction and likely certification, I would predict this is true. I have not seen paraglider pilots wearing the same amount of protective gear as you've purchased and worn, so I'm not sure about the comparison of expense, here.

9. Paragliding has one major advantage in that steering a paraglider is much easier and probably a lot more effective than a kite. Some of the newer kites do have an auto-zero-zenith construction factor, meaning they can fly themselves when the center line has been tied down to a fixed object. This was possible with the PL Synergy and also now available with their new Charger model. I would think this to be a major control plus for kiting.

10. As you mentioned, air time with a kite can be obtained by waiting for a gust rather than trying to run down a slope. I'm a little timid leaping out into the air any more simply because I've enjoyed and endured as many rough landings as I care to have, even though I'm sure I'm destined for more.

[Regarding #10, getting air time with a kite on level ground appears to be questionable and debatable. My current synopsis is that enough wind to get airborne is enough wind to blow a flyer of larger kites into danger. I am taking this point seriously into consideration and hope we can expound on opinions, here. I think the question I must now post is: "Can air time via kite be obtained and controlled safely." Perhaps this would make a good topic on its own. Correct me otherwise, please, but I believe lift is obtained by obtaining sufficient air flow over and into a kite or canopy similar to the dynamics of an airplane wing. If wind-bobbing or floating is a desired goal, can a kite pilot maintain sufficient steering to enjoy moments of loft and gentle landings toward the fulfillment of one's pursuit of kite flying? Obviously, I've discovered many of you who pursue paragliding think otherwise, but it won't hurt to rehash this in consideration of the above points. I fully respect those of you who, at this point, would like to tell me "why don't you just shut up and fly to find out." Yes, I agree, that is what I could do, and probably should. I'm hoping, however, to save as many bucks and bruises as I can, so I hope you will appreciate my persistence. Thank you.]

I'd like to know your comparison of the new PL Charger, Vapor, or large Twister vs. the Guerilla or Synergy regarding lift capability. (I've been told the Twister and Neo are kites with a lot of lift. If you think of a better kite to try, please offer it.)

Another important question, can I purchase and fly a paraglider canopy as I would a kite without formal certification or regulatory cr-p? (I'm not discounting getting some instruction.) I know the controls are different, but maybe someone can suggest improvisation, if necessary. I've seen internet pictures of motor paraglider pilots who first train to control their canopies by keeping them upright, as if flying them as kites (without motor). It looks to me to be the same as kite flying! They may not do the aerobatic maneuvers as kite flyers with their canopies at ground level, but maybe this might be an answer for me -- like "having one's cake and eating it, too".

I'll be looking forward to your replies.

Again, thanks for your time, effort, and sharing your input.

Stan

I am talking about KITING your paraglider . NOT even going off of a hill but simply running in to the wind . Having a friend add a push or stepping up + off of a bench adds seconds to the float . The most hang time possible in the conditions you describe , it would seem? You don't need a big wind to kite a paraglider so things aren't likely to go as bad.

Paragliding is expensive. Picking up a non flyable paraglider and learning how to ground handle it isn't near as expensive.

I think kites are the Bees Knees but I think you are looking to kite a paraglider ? Much less chance of hurting yourself doing what you want to do! + ( I maybe wrong here ) a shorter learning curve . ( to learn ground handling only ) ? You don't just pick up a 15m Synergy and jump. It takes a few steps to reach that point. If you are going that route you NEED to learn kite control on a smaller kite 1st!

Sustained lift ain't happening around your place unfortunately.

Quote:

Originally posted by lad I'm not ~quite 60 yet :cool2: but still getting quite breakable. I'd like to try more of the beach hang time stuff too (but all the dunes around here are fenced off). Paragliding and hang gliding is a little more expensive and involved than I'd want to go for at this time. The most affordable option is a larger arc kite - the earlier ones would do since you're after stability more than speed. The other hang-time vids I've seen use Flysurfers or tube kites. On anything harder than soft sand, you'll need reinforcements, wraps and padding. I have several kinds of sorbothane ("impact gel") insoles, high-top shoes, and even bought some surplus paratrooper ankle support braces off eBay. You might want to wrap your knees for better support as well as wear hard-shelled pads on the outside. And remember, all the padding in the world doesn't prevent injury if you land wrong or get pulled enough to twist, bend or torque your limbs. just ask me- I'm still limping a little from a month ago! :sniff: Now, just to feel better, I'm posting my dream video for the umpteenth time!

*******************
Thanks very much for your feedback.

I'm in the same boat with the expense of paragliding. Check out the Wagas Festival in France via Google. The dune jumping/gliding at low level is all I want and various bunny hops, i.e. walking on air. I plan to only fly in minimum wind with whatever I go with -- the kind of flights similar to the first of the Wright Bros. I don't want to fly by surprise.

Thus far, the Charger, Synergy and Guerilla have been recommended, especially the Guerilla. The Charger and Synergy have the auto-zenith feature. I'm not sure if the Guerilla is an auto-zenith model. I'm hesitant, however, to invest in an older kite that could have a lot of wear or age problems.

Any report you get on the Charger will be appreciated. I've been told the arc kites are typically fast kites. I need more information before making the decision. I'm very leery about all of this because safety is primary. I'm after lift and control, not power, so the paragliding canopy is still a consideration if the price is right.

Again, thanks.

Stan

My #1 issue with my 15m Syn is that it NEEDS a pretty strong wind to do what it is intended to do.

Look in to the Flysurfer Speed in Silver Arrow form. It is the undisputed winner in the low wind lift race for kites.

Gotta agree with BR on this one, my 15 syn will fly in sub 10mph, but only 15mph plus and I start getting some float without having to crank it through the power zone.

Brian

Hey Just found this video...

Seems like what your looking for

Quote:

Originally posted by brplatz Hey Just found this video... Seems like what your looking for (Video of kiting paragliders.) ******************************** Thanks very much for offering the video. I have now viewed a number of paragliding videos and some are conservative enough for me, and others, I'm glad I'm on the ground. I've seen enough to realize that while some paragliders offer what I am hoping to do, the risk factor and expense of paragliding is beyond me at this point. Also, it seems that some pilots can make paragliding look easy, but many YouTube videos show a different story. There seems to be a wide discrepancy of pilot common sense. For now, I'm going to stick with learning how to handle depower and I'll just keep an open mind... and out of trees and rocks, plus, remain in one piece. I just purchased a 12m Synergy to learn depower skills. If I get any air time, I'll report back. I sincerely thank you for thinking of me. Stan

good luck:wee:

Just purchased a 12m to get started with depower. The equipment will hopefully be used for air time, perhaps eventually with a larger kite. :wow:

What are the favorites out there? :o

Helmet:

Harness:

Protective Gear:

Bar Arrangement:

Helmet - something comfortable and tight.

Harness - Mystic

Protective gear - 661

Bar arrangement - I'm not a drinker. Someplace not too loud ? :smug: ( get a long throw bar with a stopper if you plan on using the same bar for more kites )

Careful with that 12m Syn. If you get any air static flying that kite it will likely not end well, at least your odds are not good. The reason I suggested waiting for a deal on a big Guerrilla is that when you find out how disappointing it is compared to your expectations, you will not have been out a lot of money and you can get most of it back on the bar and lines alone.

Flying static with a de-power is like putting a screen door in a submarine to keep the fish out; it will work but lead to other problems and not realize its potential.

No amount of typing will change the fact that what you seek is not attainable without a paraglider, especially in your conditions and terrain, and you have already ruled that out.

I understand what you are saying. Stan seems pretty logical and safe.

If I am keeping up to speed with his thinking I am pretty sure that Stan' plans to use the 12m to get a feel for the depower control . NOT for jumping the way he is hoping. He knows he needs to trade up , probably to a Flysurfer SA to get anything like he is working towards. Going straight to a huge SA would be a bigger mistake ?

What you say about the re-sale is very valuable. It is true how often you can buy and older kite , lines and bar for about the price of a bar and lines .

Quote:

Originally posted by acampbell Careful with that 12m Syn. If you get any air static flying that kite it will likely not end well, at least your odds are not good. The reason I suggested waiting for a deal on a big Guerrilla is that when you find out how disappointing it is compared to your expectations, you will not have been out a lot of money and you can get most of it back on the bar and lines alone. Flying static with a de-power is like putting a screen door in a submarine to keep the fish out; it will work but lead to other problems and not realize its potential. No amount of typing will change the fact that what you seek is not attainable without a paraglider, especially in your conditions and terrain, and you have already ruled that out.

********************

As with any challenge, I have learned to live within my means. As Bladerunner says, I'm using using the 12m to learn depower, not expecting any air time with it. Paragliding appears to be a journey which would easily tempt me to want more and more air. I've managed to live 60 years without breaking any bones. I believe that impact, at this point, is my worst enemy simply because it can destroy my ability to even kite fly. I know I lack a lot of experience in this overall area, and I believe the safest way is to approach this entire concept of "air time" is on a gradual basis, learning much by the opinions of many, such as you.

If paragliding is the way to go, then I will pursue it as my ability to finance my endeavor becomes available and I am convinced that I have pursued all the alternatives available that help me gain a thorough perspective and confidence in my effort. I'm not out for any speed or performance records, so time is not of the essence, or is breaking my neck. I will, however, hope to maintain a steady pace of skill improvement toward my kite flying ability, which I hope leads me to fulfilling my tentative ambitions, if possible.

I appreciated hearing your perspective. I will keep your opinion in mind as I continue moving forward.

Stan

Quote:

Originally posted by acampbell Careful with that 12m Syn. If you get any air static flying that kite it will likely not end well, at least your odds are not good. The reason I suggested waiting for a deal on a big Guerrilla is that when you find out how disappointing it is compared to your expectations, you will not have been out a lot of money and you can get most of it back on the bar and lines alone. Well I would have to agree with that one. The Guerilla is a great kite with endless possibilities. I static jump with it lots, and many people have cut their teeth on it. One instructor I met for the Caribbean said they use it too teach kite surfing. He claims its one of the best and they buy any they can find (tried to buy mine). I can't see ever getting rid of my kite, great low wind engine and gentle giant..IMHO

I strongly recommend you do not use a Flysurfer Speed 2 (any size) for hovering/gliding - as seen in the videos posted by Macboy. The speed 2 requires nice steady winds (ie. gusts not more than 4 knots above the average) which are not likely what you'll get inland. The Speed 2 15m is my favorite kite, but it's a #@%$#! in gusty wind.

Really important to know which kite suits your conditions. Its a bit of homework, but you'll be glad you did it!

P.S. You're lucky to be getting so much good advice!

Quote:

Originally posted by WolfWolfee Quote: Originally posted by acampbell Careful with that 12m Syn. If you get any air static flying that kite it will likely not end well, at least your odds are not good. The reason I suggested waiting for a deal on a big Guerrilla is that when you find out how disappointing it is compared to your expectations, you will not have been out a lot of money and you can get most of it back on the bar and lines alone. Well I would have to agree with that one. The Guerilla is a great kite with endless possibilities. I static jump with it lots, and many people have cut their teeth on it. One instructor I met for the Caribbean said they use it too teach kite surfing. He claims its one of the best and they buy any they can find (tried to buy mine). I can't see ever getting rid of my kite, great low wind engine and gentle giant..IMHO ************************** Thanks for the ditto. Point taken!!!! I feel a sudden urge to look for bananas. : )

Quote:

Originally posted by Flying G Zeus I strongly recommend you do not use a Flysurfer Speed 2 (any size) for hovering/gliding - as seen in the videos posted by Macboy. The speed 2 requires nice steady winds (ie. gusts not more than 4 knots above the average) which are not likely what you'll get inland. The Speed 2 15m is my favorite kite, but it's a #@%$#! in gusty wind. Really important to know which kite suits your conditions. Its a bit of homework, but you'll be glad you did it! P.S. You're lucky to be getting so much good advice!

**************************

Thanks very much for this input. You're right -- I'm grateful to everyone for their posts. I sense that everyone is offering out of sincerity. Very much appreciated.

Now I'll share an experience in return... a little embarrassing, but better to know what can happen...

Two nights ago (flying at night with the moonlight), I flew a two-line PL 2.6 Vibe in gusty wind. In landing, I thought I had secured the bar to retrieve my downed kite. A sudden gust (~12 mph) caught the kite, the bar flew up and hit me, and in the process, my ankle became wrapped in the string -- and then another gust caught the kite. I thought I was going to lose my ankle the way that string was cutting into me. Talk about a wake-up call. From now on, I will never fly without wearing some outside knife or pair of scissors that can cut that string in a heartbeat. Had the wind been more severe, I could have been seriously hurt. Though I had a good flight afterwards, I went home with humility. Oh, one other lesson -- my string broke in the gusty wind. I now believe in using max strength line. Maybe I'd be safer in a balloon.

two suggestions...

1. line knife for kites. Safe to carry around. see below
2. Sailing gloves. Reinforced palms and fingers for safely grabbing lines under load. Fingertips are open for working on knots, etc.

That knife looks like a winner. I will definitely order several.

Thanks very much for the idea, and picture. I have some cycle
gloves matching your description. I haven't had much of line burn problem
unless it's with single line, but I thought I was beyond getting my ankle
garroted. I sincerely want that to be a one-time experience.

Hope others of you will wear one before you get in my predicament.

bike gloves have shorter fingers in my experience. West Marine has some great 3/4 finger gloves that give you tactile finger tips but plenty of finger protection as well. You want the gloves to give chafe protection where the fingers meet the handle/bar.

Yeah, while better than nothing, bike and weight lifting gloves offer chafe protection for broad round objects like handlebars and such. Sailing gloves have extra heavy leather (even if artificial) to protect from a smaller and and textured line zipping through your hand under tension. About $8-10 at West Marine and mine last about 2 years.

Quote:

Originally posted by Stan-TheMan I went home with humility. Oh, one other lesson -- my string broke in the gusty wind. I now believe in using max strength line. Maybe I'd be safer in a balloon.

kites have a way of handing you your ego all broken up nice on a platter once in a while... On the other hand sometimes approaching the kite with humility can be the entry to an awesomely ego-boosting session, so go figure.

it's likely your kite line was cut by something on the ground, as kite lines cut really easily under tension and it sounds like your kite was mostly on the ground...

Well, comparing balloons to kites? bit of apples vs oranges there...

Good luck to ya...