I like Bb's suggestion on weaker lines. Better yet an small cost improvement on that would be to use a short segment of weak line so that if/when it pops you can just replace the short segment and not trash the entire line. Just a quick larks head. But you'll also probably want to always fly under powered.

The only other way I can see to have a non-pilot assisted system w/o buggy mod is to tether the kite to the buggy and you seperatly so that if you seperate the kite power is killed. It would have to be in the center of the buggy, probably between your legs to be most effective. I guess it's a trade-off, the kite power could be killed when you turn hard by accident, when you try to get out of the buggy, when you get a gust or worse when you get pulled but can control it.

The roll cage is intersting, but there'll be a lot of line mgmt issues. And if the kite is powered enough to loft the buggy, I don't think it'd want to be in it. that's some serious force.

NaS-P-A-M-L-I-N-K-s system is cool but I'm not sure it would work well for a strop system.

What about just flying well underepowered?

look .this is an extreme sport . If it was safe enough for grandma, I wouldn't be doin it. There is no "magic" device that is gonna let you kitebuggy w/ zero risk. It just isn't gonna happen. And if it did, I certainly wouldn't want one.

Fly hard , or take up cribbage. And ,if ya fly hard ,be prepared to crash hard. That means wear the right impact protection for the speeds and surfaces you are riding on.
Sorry to hear about Bigkids accident, but it sounds like ya were flying "overpowered" or "underprotected" .
Hope ya heal up good and get yer butt back in the #@%$#!pit and fly( not so over powered this time)

In respose to BBREX line breaking system.
I have in my learning years with power kites done some dumb things. But the dumbest I did was when I broke the line on one of my handles and replaced it with much heavier line. Got in trouble then.
So in the same idea of a lighter set of power lines. Why not lighter tie-in lines on the handles? Far less cash involved and you still have your good lines.
So either replace the power ties on the handles with lines that break at (in my case) 200lbs Then if the kite is going to rip you out it just pops the handle lines instead. Sure you still get tangled up. But in worse case you grab another kite and replace the short line and off you go.
And an even better idea just a connecting link of lighter line. I think I'll do some steatching with an inline scale and pulleys see what snaps when.

Quote:

Originally posted by WELDNGOD look .this is an extreme sport . If it was safe enough for grandma, I wouldn't be doin it. There is no "magic" device that is gonna let you kitebuggy w/ zero risk. It just isn't gonna happen. And if it did, I certainly wouldn't want one. Fly hard , or take up cribbage. And ,if ya fly hard ,be prepared to crash hard. That means wear the right impact protection for the speeds and surfaces you are riding on. Sorry to hear about Bigkids accident, but it sounds like ya were flying "overpowered" or "underprotected" . Hope ya heal up good and get yer butt back in the #@%$#!pit and fly( not so over powered this time)

Little kites in big wind can lay the most smack down for sure. There is no for sure in this sport and break away lines/strops would require a lot of R and D and would depend on so many factors that everything from riding style to rider/buggy weight would make them very hard to produce. Really all any of us can do is come up with a system that works for us MOST of the time, do what we do, and deal with the unfortunate reality when things go even more wrong than we can plan for.

Wilard,
-I will call this week and ask some questions.

Dino,
-the rolebar is already in the works, still not sure about the 3-point harness, don't like seat belts either

kteguru
Making something that releases a strop or pulley doesn't eliminate our poor human reflexes of holding onto the handles too long. In nasty conditions, even those with superman reflexes will still be 4 ft in the air before you let go of the handles even though the safety did its job and released after your butt was 2" out of your seat.
-My oldest grandson says "Grandpa can do anything". I would hate to tell him that I was under control in my OBE untill I began my dozen or so cartwheels as I wound up my kite lines like a rag doll. So we wont go there. Anything that works to give a little bit more safety will be in the right direction

heliboy50
-R and D in the business world is another term for money pit, but I will come up with something that will at least help

rocfighter
In respose to BBREX line breaking system.
I have in my learning years with power kites done some dumb things. But the dumbest I did was when I broke the line on one of my handles and replaced it with much heavier line. Got in trouble then.
-not a dumb thing if you learned something from it, but this is one direction I an going in, not being dumb but a weak link idea,

WELDNGOD
.this is an extreme sport . If it was safe enough for grandma, I wouldn't be doin it. There is no "magic" device that is gonna let you kitebuggy w/ zero risk. It just isn't gonna happen.
-I agree 100%, and the grandma remark is below the belt, ask any of my 7 grandkids. all I want to do is reduce the amount of risk for those who want to push the envelope even further, besides I bounce back just fine, almost as well as bouncing forward.:singing:

arkay
What about just flying well underepowered?
-Like that would be any fun;-)
I am awaiting a call back from a guy about Patients in relationship to A Weaker Link idea.

I just have a hard time believing the weak link idea will work and still provide good power for the rider in the buggy. I can understand Brads logic that if the kite gets overly powered the line will break. That is a very smart idea. It may save the pilot and most definitely save the kite from possible damage.

The way I see it is if you have a 200# rider and a 100# buggy you will need something stronger than a breakaway line that snaps at say 180# when the rider gets lifted. I would be amazed if during a session that I do not put more than 180# of side pull on those lines at any given time. I just think that in the attempt to be "safe" and keep your butt in the seat with the weak link will cause alot of pre-mature breaking of the weak link. And who knows .. a line that breaks at the wrong (pre-mature) moment might be as dangerous as getting an OBE. All depends on the situation.

@bigkid .. a roll cage with no seat belt seams more dangerous to me than with no cage. Wait till the meds are out of your system before you start building anything

Quote:

Originally posted by DAKITEZ @bigkid .. a roll cage with no seat belt seams more dangerous to me than with no cage. Wait till the meds are out of your system before you start building anything

ROFDFLP, rolling on the floor dieing from laughing pain.
dude, don't you know that laughing is bad for broken ribs? now I have do double this dose of meds:wee:

In my opinion the weaker line idea will be a limitation with loads of built in frustration. Lines snapping when your launching, lines snapping when your scudding, lines snapping when your power sliding in the bug, and lines snapping for no reason at all - it happens. There are so many other things that we need to contend with in order to have a good session it seems that literally building a weakness into the system would not be in your best interest. Besides frustration will make you do stupider things than you would do normally, avoid the frustration and forgo inherently weak systems.

one question to the breaking line method;
How are you gonna get both lines to break at the same time? cuz if they don't you might really be in trouble.
Death spins create huge power untill the back lines break or tear out of the kite!
If you do any serious riding you are going to be swaping lines all the time. I am sure that I would snap them at every turn.
I don't really think "weak links " are really gonna work, but I hope you have fun trying!

I've been riding one variation or another of my snowspider sled hot wired for 3years and this issue has botherd me for a while.I like the idea of an automatic release and the above discussion has been inspiring.
When hot wired to my HQ kites I can install a single weak link between my depower pulley and the flying lines thus releasing both lines in the same instant. When Im in the buggy flying with a harness I can leash the top hat to the buggy , same result. Obviously handles present there own issues but I think the answer to a higher level of safety is in these discussions.

This is where I go back to a 5th line idea. it attaches to the buggy and as you are lifted the shape of the kite changes, it loses lift. It doesn't matter if you let go of the handles or not because the kite loses power. At least how I understand the 5th line concept. If it works, your but lifts only a little from the buggy. The only problem I see is if you still come out of the buggy at speed and are injured that way. Of course, attaching a line to each kite is a problem and how to run it with handles causes a issue too.

Been playing around with the grandson and the buggy to work on the harness, and Q/R to the buggy.
Main problem at this point is the distance changes from the fixed point on the bug to the Q/R on the harness. If the kite is in front of the bug the distance is shorter than if the kite is at the zenith or behind. so high or low the distance changes any where from 2 to 6 inches. To much for any comfort at this point. I think a 5th line would not deploy until to late for my comfort. Grand son likes the fact of being hooked and lifted out of the bug with an electric winch, rather slow but you can see the changes as they happen, Still need more R and D

Others have already suggested this but have you given any consideration to switching over to depower. If your flying well within the upper range of the kite you should have a safe margin of error from when you depower the kite to when you trip the primary safety. And this would give you a great excuse to tell your wife you need to buy more kites:D:wee:

I don't know how one would incorporate this into a buggy quick release, but you need something like my riding lawnmower has. The seat has a spring under it. when you sit in the seat your weight smashes the spring and allows a tab on the bottom of the seat to make contact with a tab on the mower. as long as these two tabs are together the mower will operate. as soon as you take weight off the seat the tabs separate and the mower quits.

Basically you need some sort of reverse mouse trap type design. You have to put your butt in the seat to set the safety and as soon as your butt raises up it trips the safety. This way there is no weak links or other misc factors. I still do like the idea of when the safety trips it would release the main lines, just like pulling the top hat on a de-power.

I like the main line idea also.

Was trying to figure out how to use a quick release pin like you would buy at Lowes. Then put a sleeve over it that would catch on the balls.

Compress the inner spring tighter to make it harder to release. May have to machine a different pin for the inside and have a line attachment point pulling from the end instead of the thumb knob. When there's enough force pulling against the spring, the balls would move into the cut out on the pin and release the sleeve.

A threaded version would allow for indexing to set it for different force loads. This would work better for a strop line but if you could break away the main line between the handle and kite, then have it pull a release for the break line on that side and flag the kite.

Confused? probably but theres a way to make it work if you can get the principle I'm trying to explain but I'm not good at explaining as you see.

I need a machine shop.

Quote:

Originally posted by DAKITEZ I don't know how one would incorporate this into a buggy quick release, but you need something like my riding lawnmower has. The seat has a spring under it. when you sit in the seat your weight smashes the spring and allows a tab on the bottom of the seat to make contact with a tab on the mower. as long as these two tabs are together the mower will operate. as soon as you take weight off the seat the tabs separate and the mower quits. Basically you need some sort of reverse mouse trap type design. You have to put your butt in the seat to set the safety and as soon as your butt raises up it trips the safety. This way there is no weak links or other misc factors. I still do like the idea of when the safety trips it would release the main lines, just like pulling the top hat on a de-power.

HHHMMMM!! You might be on to somthing here. A piezo/ electric switch that when it has no weight on it opens a circut to a solenoid that is attached to the quick release causing it to open.

Now we just need to find a way to get this to work with
W-Lan and Solar power and the Problem is solved!:singing:

Up until you go over a bump, butt comes off the switch for a half second, and there goes your kite fluttering away...

Quote:

Then put a sleeve over it that would catch on the balls.

:o

I have been a lurker on this topic and then it dawned on me, what if you flew on a turbo bar or the like and set it so that the brake lines were tight with the bar out and if you pulled the bar in it would stall the kite. In a moment of panic it would be natural to pull in the bar thus eliminating the power and luff the kite. Not sure if would work as i have not finished my turbo clone yet, but maybe jovver could give us some more feedback. below is a quote from the other thread SS turbo bar.
Scott


Quote:

As long as you have enough throw in the centerline, you can do pretty much whatever you want! To fly unhooked you may have to trim all the way in. I like keeping my trim all the way out so the brake lines are taught when the bar is in the middle of the centerline. I find that's a comfortable arms length for me. I can then "pump" the brakes as you said, and if I pull the bar all the way in I can stall and bring the kite down safely, or bring it back towards the middle of the window while buggying. It's all personal preference, and you will find out what you like best when you test out the rig for the first time.

Chucky - intelligent, auto-releasing safety for buggy pilots:

(its in german, because the developer is a german. translate with google.com)
http://www.spiritofsky.de/content/de/Chucky.html



at the bottom of this page below you see two videos explaining the auto-safety:

http://www.spiritofsky.de/content/de/Buggy-Kurs.html

herc, thats the direction I am leaning to. but once you leave the seat which looked to be 6 to 10 inches you still have the full power of the kite in your hands and are then on your way out and beyond the wild blue yonder. the kite needs to be depowered at that point.
I refuse to go to the dark side so the f/b kites and the handles will be my inspiration.

ok, you are right. if a sudden gust hits you, and you cant react fast enough to release the handles, then the chucky brain still does not help.

but you could attact another leach to the kite - brakes ? this way, if you get pulled out of buggy, the buggy will pull on the brakes after some distance, depending on the length of the additional leash line....

That where i've been, teather the brakes to the frame between your knees. If you get lofted the buggy will pull on the brakes. Of course, if you are stroped in you are likley to get whiplash from the pull of the buggy, and if the winds/kite are strong enough to loft you then the brakes on the kite alone will likley pull the buggy down wind for a while.

I don't like the idea of hot wireing to the buggy for safty, though I plan to try it anyway So I think you want the kite attached to you. Which means the only reference point you have to OOBE are the buggy or a an accelerometer Being an electronics guy, I don't think you want anything automatic that's non-mechanical. Too many things can go wrong. I'll give +1 point to the mechanical engineers on this one.

dunno what happend to you jeff ... get well soon. but it sounds like you had a huge OBE. OBE happen from time to time, and its normally because you're doing something wrong or keeping your kite too high at full speed or riding overpowered?

if you ride overpowered you need to learn how to control it. im a small guy but i fly 1 to 3 sizes bigger than the rest. its all kite placement and learning how to maneuver it when in trouble. if you incur an OBE the last thing I would want to do is let go, the kite is going to help bring you back down if you go straight up. one way to bleed off speed too is to drift yourself downwind and than curve upwind to power slide / slow down.
you have a set of Cent II, so they sit far to the edge, so if you're in trouble its better to push out your handles and let if overfly. most people like to yard on their brake, that okay but you need to move your hand all the way down near bottom and pull hard to stall it out.

if you're flying in a lot of gusty conditions, i suggest shorter lines too.

i use a PL Pulley Spreader and in the up position you can make the strop line fall out by using your thumbs.

I hear you broke some ribs, how high are your side rails? maybe add some more padding or pickup some rib protectors from a Go-Kart shop.

like I mentioned to daskirtz, i will go depower when my hands stop working, and when i cant buggy anymore ill move to a blokart.

Don't rule out the arcs. I have been in some very treacherous winds with them and they have treated me very fairly. Only the fixed bridles, and mainly the small ones, have been culprits of my injuries. I'm just saying that if all else fails they'll be there for ya.

I have 2 blokarts but I ain't ready to only do that full time. As for the dark side, that to will have to wait also. I see the trauma surgeon tomorrow so I will find out then how I am doing and when I can get back in the bug.
Everyone has put in great stuff. I have some good info and some good ideas, just need the body to agree it's time to do some R and D.

Rip's post sounded like my first one. We must think alike Rip.

As for those who are thinking of putting a leash from the back lines down to the buggy let me prewarn you that this is an exceptionally exceptionally bad idea! I did this for the hell of it once quite some time ago as it seemed reasonable just as many of you may think. What is essentially guaranteed to happen is that when you are lifted your buggy will go right up into the air with you and when you come down you are going to be wishing you were never connected to anything. When you go up with the kite you have 160lbs (in my case) of your weight on the main lines. The weight on your back lines that you expect to somehow overpower this situation to kill the kite is (in my case) a buggy of about 55 lbs. All the buggy does is go right up with you. Even the heaviest buggies don't come in much past 120lbs which isn't enough to kill the kite if your in the air still holding onto the handles. Unless of course you weigh less than your buggy. Just a suggestion of course but I though it was important to mention this as the wreck that will come from this could be very ugly. I got lucky the day I did this years ago,,,,,very lucky.

Quote:

Originally posted by kteguru Rip's post sounded like my first one. We must think alike Rip.

speedster think a like i guess. =)

i have your quick release, hook knife would be another option.

QR Strop line

BK If you're hooked to your harness and the kite is snatching you out of the buggy skyward its pulling at a force greater than your weight. With a "quick disconnect" this force would instantly be transfered to your hands. My guess is that the handles would be ripped from your hands disconnecting you from the kite. What happens to you , buggy and kite after that is anyones guess.
You could test this by flying static hooked in with a shoelace or whatever and have someone cut the connection. If you can hang on chalk one up to lighting fast reflexes and an iron grip!
Better yet I'll test it and let you know how it goes.

I have had it go both ways- death grip yanked me sideways 18+ feet (still a newb with poor judgment at that point) and had handles ripped out of my hands at NABX. Dunno- this is a tricky subject without a one answer fits all ending. Little fb's on the playa are a different animal than the same kites on soft (or even hardpack) beach sand.