i am getting 2 ends of the spectrum here, some are saying start with a trainer, and in my mind a 5m would be a trainer especially in low wind conditions.
some are saying to go with the 12m or around that size, arent i much more likely to hurt myself with a larger kite?
im not an idiot i intend to take this sport with baby steps, but i also dont intend to waste my money on a trainer that i cant do what i want with, and wish i didnt spend the hundreds and woulda just went for the bigger kite. just a thought. im enjoying the feedback keep it up! thanks

I think anybody suggesting you go straight to a 12m was assuming you have trainer kite experience. A 10 or 12m is usually a good , go to size once you know the ropes. You are right that a smaller depower will be safer to learn on. If you HAVE to go depower ?

The rub with going straight to the 5m Depower is it is DISIGNED to work in the upper wind range . Look at the chart for the kites you are talking about . This mean you will struggle to even fly it until it's windy enough . A 3m trainer is DESIGNED to FLY EARLY so you can learn in lower winds. Being fixed bridle it will have the power of a 5m Depower kite when the wind picks up and you are ready to go !

with a 5m kite you will need fairly strong winds correct? but many snowkiters ARE using a depower bar?

Almost ALL snowkiters ride depower but almost ALL learn on a 3m fixed bridle trainer as well.

Most people who fly fixed bridle ( like me occasionally ) on snow use handles.

The 2 ends are to either tell you what you should really do, or what you should get if you choose to ignore the advice of experienced fliers. That gap is the big problem with the big question. 5m is too big for you to get kite experience with. Many a flier (me included) has been picked up and sent flying with a 3m kite. The difference between what that 3m and a 5m will do to you in that situation can be disastrous, but you shouldn't waste your money on a little 3m.

Just think if your goal was to become an F1 racer. You probably wouldn't go out and pick up a deal on a slightly used F1 car to go out on a track and learn with. Use planes as another example. You wouldn't go to take initial flying lessons in a high performance jet either.

Jet fighter BOB

A 5m fixed bridle and a 5m Depower are completely different animals. You do get that ?

A 5m is a mid sized fixed bridle kite and shuld be a step up .

A 3m kiteboard trainer is EXACTLY THAT ! Exactly what you need , if you can't beg borrow or steal one for 20 hours !

a fixed bridle foil is more powerful per sq. meter than a depower foil, and arcs have less power per sq meter than a depower foil.

small depower foils require lots of wind to perform well, they are next to useless in low winds. Some designs are better than others in low winds, but nothing beats fixed bridles in low winds.

gusty winds bring much additional risk, esp. at higher wind speeds. snow kiters nearly always deal with gusty winds. depower kites are best in gusty winds, big fixed bridles are the worst.

it's impossible to have one kite for all conditions, esp. at the beginning. With skill, it may be possible to only have two or three depowers to cover most situations, but very few people keep it to this.

small kites in medium winds are easy to fly, big kites in light winds are much harder to fly.

are you doing any research? Do you know anybody who can help teach you?

your stunt kite experience is a big plus... 2-liners or 4 liners? what kites? many of us got our start that way.

you don't need to spend hundreds to get a trainer kite, and getting started with some kind of trainer is how you take baby steps.

The obvious starting point has already been hammered out so I will try to veer off of that SLIGHTLY. I live in the Canadian Prairies and I thought it was windy here till I got my first kite. Now I know that the winds in my area are predominately West or some variation of West (w,sw,nw) and it isn't too often above 20k/h where the winds aren't gusty (crap winds for kiting). The first kite I bought last year was a 6meter ozone access. Great kite for high winds handles gusts well. I watched hours of videos and read probably every thread on this site and thought that I knew all I needed. While waiting for my new kite to come I acquired a Ozone Imp 3.5m trainer. First time I tried it was in about 15-20km/h winds. Surprise!!!!!! What I thought I knew about kiting meant nothing. It took me a good hour to understand how to make finer turns into the wind so that it wouldn't unexpectedly yank me and I lose control throwing it into the powerzone to get yanked again. Before my 6m arrived I got about 20-25hours of flight time and I'm glad I did. If I would have used my 6meter there's a good chance that I would have been thrown around onto my face, hurt the family members that were watching me and not to mention damaged my new kite. One thing to look at with the trainer kite is that it is a learning tool that after your twenty hours of practice, can be sold for very close to what you paid for it. To get a decent snowkite session with a 5-6 meter depower, you are gonna need at least 20mph or better winds (hence why they are called a high winds kite) With my 6 meter access fully geared up I need at least 22-25 mph winds in any amount of powder too get a ride that I won't be working the kite non-stop. Granted I'm close to 200lbs fully geared up. What I'm trying to point out is that it would be a good idea to get a trainer now and learn what you can from it in its entire range, then you can sell it and make most of your money back and get your next kite, which could evidently be bigger that the depower that you are looking at now, bringing you to more of a go to kite instead of one that might be too small for you to get what you want out of it. Sorry I dragged it on but like everyone else here I'm just trying to help you make the best possible informed decision for your money. Good luck and stay safe!!

shaggs

i am doing a ton of research and trying to take in as much as possible before purchasing a traction kite. i flew 2 line stunt kites. so would it be a better idea to get a fixed bridle witha crossbar that is attatchable to a harness? or are depower bars the best way to go if i wish to be tethered to the kite? for snowkiting

so what i guess what i need to decide is Ozone pure 4m with a fake depower bar, but pretty close. or an hq apex2 5m with true depower. both i beleive will hook up to a harness so i dont have to hang on that bar all day, and use the bar for STEARING not a "tow rope"??? that is my main thing, i dont want to kill my hands holding onto that bar all day!

if i am hearing all of your input correctly, in semi low smooth wind a fixed bridle would be better, when i say better i mean good pull and speed for cruising on a lake with my board. and if im in gusty strong wind i would want a depowerable kite such as the apex2.

people are telling me to keep the kite semi small till i get comfortable with traction kites.

The common use of a depower for board sports is due to the fact that while riding you have the added benefit of trimming the kite while riding. You can have the bar pulled in halfway for a nice cruise and then when a gust hits and you start to lose some control you can push the bar away to spill the wind a bit to stabilize. Other benefits are to power up more you pull the bar closer. In a basic terms you are either increasing or decreasing the angle of attack the kite is in the wind (making it more flat or less flat). This can also be achieved with a trim strap that most depowers have, its purpose is to lengthen or shorten the front flying lines on the kite. I've never done any boarding with a fixed bridle, but most who use one for anything, will say that any 4-line fixed bridle works best on handles as you have the most control that way. To be hooked in (tethered as you say) a depower has a nice chicken loop that should be fitted with a nice safety release, you want to practice using your safety till you can do it in your sleep, this will save your life if things go wrong. It all comes down to preference through experience, but there is definitely a reason why most use a depowerable kite for any board sport. If you have a chance try to find someone who flies that can help you learn the ropes. This could help you find what you want to buy. Another thing to consider here is that you will get hooked very quickly when you start flying, and most likely will want an option for the months that there is no snow. I thought that I'd just want to snowkite, but still just ending my first year have acquired tons of gear and still want lots more. Its a crazy addiction that just keeps calling.

Quote:

Originally posted by mwc_xb-crewx people are telling me to keep the kite semi small till i get comfortable with traction kites.

folks are also telling you to get a 3m fixed bridle first, this as a cheap and sensible first step, you'll want to do as much of your learning as you can while it's still warm, maybe?

you're missing the part about learning to fly a 4-line traction kite before getting on a board.

fwiw, fixed bridles are usually best on handles and depower kites MUST be flown on a bar.

Yes, keep it small to learn with. Don't worry about buying a kite you'll only use for a few months as it will be money well spent. Read this forum much and you'll see a lot of used kites moving quickly. If you can buy used and then sell later you'll save a boat load of cash. If you have to buy new and then sell you'll take a hit in the wallet but it's better then a hit on the ice from 15 feet up.

As to depowers, they are awesome, but not for the inexperienced flier. It can be a challenge to just figure out where to set the depower range for the conditions you are in. Maybe the guy next to you is flying fine, but you could get lofted by the same kite if you set the depower wrong and don't realize the error you've made.

Also, the safety systems on the depowers are complex. You have to follow the instructions religiously until you learn what all the features are for. You'll see fittings and connectors that make no sense until you have some experience using the hardware.

You tell us no one near you flies and that can make it hard to learn. Some things are so much easier to learn if you see someone do it. I have two Scorpions that like--all the Scorpions--have issues inflating on launch. Over and over I read the advice to "tug hard on the top lines" to get it to fill, but I just couldn't make it work 'til I saw someone launch a Scorp right next to me. I thought the wind was too light to launch but up the kite went as the flier tugged the heck out of those lines walking back the whole time. After seeing that launching became easy.

So listen well and ask questions when things don't make sense. The fliers on this forum are a great bunch.

Philip

well we wont get snow for a few months yet so i will get in plenty of fly time before i hop on a board. soi think i am going to go with a depowerable kite just for the simple fact of its versatility. i understand your reasoning for starting on a simple fixed bridle. i just dont have the money and i feel i will be able to learn fairly quickly weather i am using quad handles or a depower bar. and yes i dont know a single person that flies these, and am eager to change that.

anyone know of a depower kite for around 5-700? i was also looking at the ozone pure 4m which looks like a nice kite, i understand that it is not a true depower but i NEED something that i can hook up to, to save my hands from hanging onto that bar all day. so plz keep that in mind when giving kite ideas! thanks everyone!

so doing some searching i have found the hq apex 2 5m which is depower.

and i also found the ozone pure with the crossbar and tether.

im thinking of going for the apex because it is affordable and i like the idea of depower, with some practice i will hop on my board this winter.

Shaggs makes a great point about the fact that most any kite can be resold for good value through forums - esp if you take care of it. Sounds like you'll be around for a while as you learn (happy to have you) so I'd bet by the time it came to sell so you could step up you'd be quite a respected member of this little family and should have no troubles selling the kite at a fair price for both you and the buyer. Some, like me, have a hard time letting go though and the quiver swells......

No matter what you end up doing, do make a note to self to try flying a fixed bridle on handles. You'll be stunned at the control you have over it. I started out on fixed bridles (3m, 4.7m and 7.5m) and when I got my Access 10m depowerable I thought I was doing something wrong because it didn't turn very well. In fact it turned jut as it's supposed to - I was just used to flying the fixed bridles which you can literally spin round itself with all the control you have.

Oh yes....you'll have many, many kites my friend ; )

Welcome to the forum mwc_xb-crewx. Plenty of good advise here as always. If I can put in my 2 cents I would suggest you go for a trainer first before you buy any depower kite. The reason is two fold. First,,, they're less expensive and get you learning the basics to start off then as you progress you can buy a depower in a size that will work well in the majority of your local wind conditions. Secondly,,,,,, a 5 meter depower like the Apex will need 12-15mph winds just to fly and at least 20mph wind to move you whatsoever on a board. It's likely that your local wind averages in the 12-15 range like much of the rest of the country. So going the route with the Apex is (in my opinion) just shooting yourself in the foot. It costs more than a trainer and requires significantly more wind to use which means fewer days you can get out and fly.

This past winter a friend got a 4m depower (Ozone Access) which I tried for a short while and although I was underpowered it was a great session. What wind were we flying in? 40+mph and the Access had plenty of depower left. I'm sure the kite will rarely see the light of day but on those rare times when the winds are ridiculous he has the right tool for the job. Don't get me wrong,,,,the 5m apex may be a nice kite for those nuclear days but it simply won't see much use on the average winter day. As others have mentioned,,, their most used size for a depower kite may be around the 10-12m range. Of course you wouldn't want to learn on that, but after becoming comfortable with a trainer then a 7-9 meter depower would be a good next step and would be a useful size you can get some snowboarding time on. Good luck this winter and let us know how things turn out.

I think others have leaded towards this but not sure if anyone flat out said it. A 5m depower will not have much more power than a 3m fixed bridle. The 5m de-power will need more wind to fly than the 3m. The 3m will be much, much less money. Basically what I am trying to say is if you buy a 5m de-power you are buying a expensive trainer. Not say a small de-power is not a good kite, but (as others have said) you will need alot more wind to get power out of it than your skill level will be for some time.
Also I think any respectable shop will not sell you anything larger than a 5m de-power as your first kite, unless you have had some sort of training. I know I wouldn't sell you one. This is not to be rude but like others have said I don't care about you killing yourself, I just don't want you to ruin it for the rest of us.
Get a good 3m fixed bridle and you will thank us for it. As for the harness you can hook any kite into a harness. If you use handles you use a strope. If you use a standard quad line bar or x-over bar you use a d-loop. If a de-power you use a chicken loop. So do not think you "need" a bar to hook in to a harness. There are plenty of options available to you.

I wake up and am astonished at the traffic on this thread. [edit]

I agree with 2 things being said here.

1. A 5m depower is too small to snow kite with and definately too small to jump with.

2. Learn to fly a 4 line kite on a bar BEFORE you try kiting and boarding at the same time! - start with something around 3 - 3.5m

Normally folks are pretty friendly on here so i dont know what you did to get the health and safety lecture - as far as I can tell you are just stoked to get into it anf don't realise everything you dont know yet.

To answer your question I would recommend a 10m Apex 2 or Access as your 1st depower snow kite. If you get serious about jumping then you can upgrade to a manta or something.

I differ in opinion to a lot of people in that I fly fixed bridles with my snowboard & landboard as I think they are more responsive. A 5.6m PL Twister will give you LOTS of air in 15mph + but you need to get a decent long bar (flexi-foil traction extreme is what i use 70cm)

There are 2 questions here which is why you are getting lots of different opinions. I just suggested a few first snow kites but your first kite should be something like a 3m ozone flow, flexifoil rage or PL twister. spend the rest of the summer/fall learning to fly and by winter you will be ready to do some runs on the snowboard and upgrade your Kite.

Quick edit - That kite will not go to waste. the 3.5m bullet I started with is my most used kite and comes out every time the wind hits 30mph when I'm boarding. which is a lot of the time where I live!

Another thing that a good trainer kite as suggested by others (3m fixed) will be good for other than just a good high wind kite, is that once the experienced flier (you) becomes the trainer, he will have something to train with.

It also sounded to me as though maybe you had the misunderstanding that you can't be hooked in with handles. But as Dakitz mentioned, that's not true at all. Whether fixed or depowerable, we all fly hooked in. BUT, not right away. Go slow with that step as well.

so i have read every post a few times to make sure i take it all in.

my main goal is to get a kite that will pull me in 10-20mph winds, so from what you have all said a fix bridle will be the best choice, and a depower will be much to weak for these winds.

i still would like to get a kite with a bar, so when i do get comfortable with the kite i can hop on a board. saying that
"you can hook any kite into a harness." looking at the rush 300 or 350 if you gt the wrist strap so if you drop the bar it will collapse the kite. i DO NOT want something like that so i am allowed to do do some arials if i get a good gust. so i was looking at a scout, or a ozone pure. not depower but has a bar designed LIKE the depower in that i can hold most of the kite pull by my waiste instead of gripping that bar all day!

thanks everyone! i appreciate your posts. and yes i am just excited i dont mean to be a pain.

the flexifoil rage looks like a really good kite and has great pull in low wind. the only problem with it is i would like something with a bar i can strap to my waist. any ideas with that info?

so im looking into the ozone pure 4m with bar. its not a depower but looks like i can let up on the bar to give my arms a little break. correct me if im wrong, and if you own one im curious how it pulls in 10-15 mph wind.

Now at least you are talking sense. You can put a D-loop (to hook in to a harness) on a Rush 350 bar; both HQ and Peter Lynn sell D-loops. The 350 in the name refers to span, not area. area will be around 3.00 sq m
Might as well look at an HQ Scout II in 3-4 m (and that IS area) for better upwind performance. And it comes with a D-loop, Fwiw.

The Rage will fly on a bar, such as the Flexifoil Extreme Bar that also comes with chicken loop and safety release.

Just don't hook in until you understand the kite and know what it will do next at all times.

I've seen a newbie using the Ozone Pure on skis in about 14mph. She appeared to be doing reasonably well.

yea the pure is one of the only kites i can find that has the bar with the dloop to save my arms. anyone know of a good low wind kite with a dloop or chicken loop?

tbh that is the main beef with me is i need a kite with a bar that has a tether loop so i can release the bar and the kite doesnt come crashing down.

This is just a thank you post. without you guys i would have surely baught the wrong kite, and without you i would have noone to ask these simple questions. THANKS ALL!

Get a Prism Tensor it converts from handles to Bar and back. This would get you the skills to fly safely. Plus you can learn the basics on both handles and bar. Then get your depower once the snow starts falling. Try to fly the tensor with a skateboard or Mtn board it is not as easy as some people make it look. Also wear some kind of pads and helmet.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jniRFMdGHwE

well a crossover bar is about 100 bucks, no offense but id rather get a kite with bar attached. know of any like that?