Well, well, well! I took a few days to go camping without kites or buggies, and returned to find that lo, and behold... all these awesome minds are ticking and loaded for bear!

I feel warm fuzzies all over, seeing that y'all took the ball I casually kicked into the court, and you're already scoring goals!

And, in the first few posts, I felt some cold #@%$#!lies when I saw a tendency to collapse, once again, into re-hashing past injuries, slights, incidents and personalities.

But then, (woo hoo!), somebody, in my absence, said it better than I could... let's leave the past lie there and stink, and move on to the next meadow. Good onya! This group is a phenominal bunch of thinkers, and just 'cuz we only see each other each year in full fun mode, we seldom see what a great bunch of thinkers, planners, and organizers are sitting right 'round the fire with us! If we chose to use the AKA as our organizing body, the representation of numbers would, indeed, be beneficial; AKA has a long history, a good web presence, a good print magazine already in production, and it had, at one time, a traction committee. Perhaps this avenue is, after all, the best one for creating a credibility engine for traction sports, even buried among the other forms of kiting.

Dave Gomberg said it best... if we want credibility, we have to build it. Us. You and me. I sat, for a brief while, on the traction committee, and I know that it will generate some flames to say this, but it must be said... those who had the most influence on this committee, in my experience, just could not get past the personalities, the past, and the fact that consensus amongst buggy pilots did not put racing as the first and foremost purpose of the AKA Traction Committee.

As usual, Corey added a great deal of thoughtful response, and his wisdom, regardless of our little Corey-Lama game, is solid, based on years of doing this stuff all over the world, and contains the element of freedom from organization and rulebooks that I think we all agree adds a desirable ambience to our events that we want to hang onto. Corey sometimes pisses people off by speaking in their behalf, unbidden... but what comes from Corey, often, after some thought, reveals a deep devotion to what we do, to this "family", and to the preservation of those things that make this a family. Many of the Lama's comments have totally pissed me off, when he spoke or wrote them, but after I let my Irish settle down a bit, and truly put myself in the other guy's shoes, I had to chew some crow and admit that he was, if not totally right (now, who wants to admit THAT!), at least thinking more fairly, more completely, and more realistically about the issue than my emotions would allow. We need to all be grateful for this presence in our midst, regardless of his canine nutritional techniques.

And Dean Jordan... aw, well, screw it, y'all know his value to this group. He's prolly putting another coat of 14k gold paint on that villa in the south of France that he bought with all our NABX fees.

Dave Gomberg, you are always the consummate gentleman in these Donnybrooks, and I admire your ability to keep a cool head about things, and inject factual information where we trip and fall into hyperbole. Glad you're choosing to contribute and steer us clear of any Dick Cheney hunting techniques. Shooting our lawyer in the face, at this point, would be costly, indeed.

And as for Meg... jeez, you've already got way too many husbands, or I would DEFINITELY come a'courtin' like the little Froggie I am. You're a gem, and I pity the poor BLM drone that gets in your way. How's come the really great kite babes are all taken, dammit! But seriously, your insight and comments show your experience in this game, and I'm just a raw recruit by comparison. You've got me thinking about some of my own opinions of the past, and the family should know just how hard you worked on behalf of NABX 2006, as well as all the unrecognized efforts you're keeping up sotto voce, so to speak. What a great bunch of heart in such a small package! I always feel an insuppressable grin stealing over my face when I see you walking my way... but then, I'm not one of the husbands, so I don't yet fear your "dark side". :frog:

So, to avoid another post the size of New Jersey, (sorry, Pedro), let me just conclude by saying this is great stuff! People are thinking, talking, analyzing, and criticizing constructively, letting go of the past, looking forward with optimism and recognition of our potential, and getting ready to make good things happen.

Now, for a few more questions: I flung the poo, I stirred the pot, now how do WE keep this going? Different forum? New topic in this one? Who would WE appoint as our AKA Traction Committee chair and members? If not AKA, where and whom? And in one final nod to our best friend and worst enemy, Father Time, how about setting a goal of having answers to most, if not all, of these questions by NABX next year? Too soon? Too long? I'm not giving my opinion, just phrasing the question. Chicken-sh*t, ain't I?

Enough outta me, except for this: Thank you, all of you, for these great responses! I am confident that this family is on its way to even better events, promotion, and recognition on a national level. Doors will open, if we but believe they will.

-Dooley :moon:

Quote:

Originally posted by deanaoxo They no longer use the FISLY rules in GB

nope totally lost on this comment. FISLY rules are still used in GB, and work fine:puzzled:

Quote:

Originally posted by deanaoxo Did you know, that if you come into their little group and go faster than everyone else, they will just outlaw your kite? This is a fact. It's one class their, all flying the same kites. Sound like fun? Not to me.

I'd love to know which country this happens in as I've never heard of it til now.

Quote:

Originally posted by deanaoxo I love racing. I will not race anyone when they tell me i have to learn a book full of rules so complicated that green means stop, just to go around in a circle with my friends. It isn't that complicated. We never had trouble till the rules were changed my friend. That is fact. Racing here died right away. That is fact.

If we are talking FISLY then the rules work fine, everyone else manages to read, use and understand them. I think the main issue is that they took the easy option of making parakarts a class of landyachts and applying the same set of rules as 'standard' landyachts. IMHO the rules could be simplified a hell of a lot and have no effect on the racing

What changes were made to the rules over here that you mention, that killed racing off? Come to mention it what rules were used here?

I'm intrigued on this current line of conversation as I moved here from Europe and left the racing scene behind. Joined the AKA and was surprised at the lack of traction activities. Only a small handful of fliers local to where I am are interested in it:o

Dean if we ever get to meet up, I'm up for a race (no rules required )

Paul

Quote:

Dean if we ever get to meet up, I'm up for a race (no rules required ) Paul

Sure, i like to race. Best three out of five, i pick course. You pick judge. Anyone else is welcome.

Racing Rules
These rules are designed to be simple and enforceable and have evolved to
reduce manipulative games based on rules rather than ability. We are a
spectator sport and our rules are designed to promote visually exciting
events. Regulation is kept to the minimum necessary to enable open and
fair racing, where the winner is the winner , not decided in a protest
room. It is our desire to avoid the complicated right of way rules which
plague yachting.

1. A race judge will be appointed before the start of the meeting whose
judgment is agreed to be impartial and non-partisan and that judge has the
power to black flag competitors out for blatant obstruction, unsafe
behavior or buggy, "hunting", incompetence to the point where it is
generally preventing the fair conduct of the race and team racing. (Team
racing is defined as a buggier fouling out another competitor to advantage
some associated competitor).

2. For multi-buggy races we do not out law obstructing in general with
exception of deliberate or blatant obstruction, the judgment on obstruction
is made on whether the alleged obstruction could reasonably have some other
credible reason for doing whatever it was anyway - e.g. had no choice, was
just incompetent, tacked expecting a wind shift etc.

3. That for multi-buggy events, starts will be so that each buggy has at
least 10/15m clear laterally to each adjacent buggy and that the first leg
will be from a line set at the most upwind part of the course directly to
the most downwind mark without requirement to round other marks on the
way.

4. Preliminary heats will be used to help reduce fields to less than 10
buggies per race if space is a problem.

5. A competitors buggy can not be moved once they are off the buggy unless
it is to retrace their initial course.

6. Races will start at a predesignated times, race times and locations are
to be published in advance. The race starts at the horn blows with strike
of the clock unless conditions are unsafe. A 2 minute warning consisting
of two short blasts of the horn will be given 2 minutes prior to the
scheduled start time.

7. Subject to safety and race committee decision, there will be no defined
minimum or maximum winds.

8. A pass will be registered only after the next mark is rounded.

9. Points will be awarded as follows: The winner of each race will recieve
zero points, all other finishers will recieve points equal to their
finishing place. Racers who do not finish a race will recieve points equal
to the average of the number particpants who started the race and the
number of finishers plus one. (See scoring for more detailed explanation)

10. Upwind racers must yield to downwind racers.
Who has the right to go first? These rules give the right-of-way to no
one-----it only says who must yield (give up) the right-of-way. Every
racer must do everything possible to avoid a collsion.

THESE RULES WILL BE CONFIRMED PRIOR TO THE EVENT COMMENCING, AND ARE
SUBJECT TO VARIATION AND INTERPRETATION BY THE RACE COMMITTEE.

Meanwhile, does anyone know when the next gathering at El Mirage is?

and BTW i'm headed up to the Black Rock Desert on the weekend of the fourth of july(the 4th don't fall on the wknd, but you know that wknd)to move some stuff around our storage facility, and i'm going to camp out on the lake, and buggy hopefully sat afternoon, and suday. Anyone interested email me.

PPS sorry, but i'm not commenting anymore on past events. I was a jerk, Corey is the Llamma, Mike Dooley Rocks, Jon Ellis Rocks, once i was nice, Meg Rocks, Claxton never stops and Rocks Hard, Mike Jura Rocks and never stops, I miss lvtDave, Rob V takes great pictures, Bob C rocks, Jose should buggy, David Sabilino is a God, all traction kite sports rock, French guys talk funny, Going fast at Elmers on a weekday by yourself doesn't suck, single line kites rock, being on TV is dumb, being in a kite video is kewl, kite boats rock, Jeff Howard eats buggy dust, all kite flying makes all kiteflyers better kite flyers, kite flying doesn't automaticly make you a nice person, it does however get you a seat at the bar, but only for so long, after that you have to pour, or tell a better joke, kite shot cars are kewl, Steve Bateman is a weird guy but knows how to haul ass on a buggy, knowing where city hall and the front porch at a buggy event is paramount wherever you are, Galveston Rocks, Peter Lynn is an alien, Florida Rocks harder but hardly anyone knows it since there is no event there, Dave D and the texas Krew Rock, California is killer and people like kites, the desert is the best, kite festivals are good, unless you can't fly kites there, AKA rocks, but needs new blood, fighter kites rock, all you MF's can stop by if your in town ALL OF YOU! You just cant' stay. Bring something.

aoxomoxoa

aoxo

Just a quick interjection on racing rules...
What about the marks?
The things that mark the points that must be rounded on a course.

What happens if a racer hits one?

I don't like the idea of points.
Given or removed.

What about : If a rider hits a mark, the mark must be re-rounded.
If the mark is knocked over or moved, the rider must stop (off the racing course), ground their kite, replace the mark and re-round it before continuing the course.
If the riders fails to replace the mark, their entire lap will not be counted.

Tons of incentive to not hit any of the marks, which should be the point.

I like that the burden to be a "good sport" is on the rider, not any official.

If I were a racer, I'd want to race against riders I respected.
Winning without honor is a hollow sort of victory.
Nothing to relish.

The Buggy Boogie Thang - Sprang is the weekend AFTER this.
June 2-4, 2006 at Elmer's - Same Old Place.

Hopefully many of the motor-heads will be used up from this weekend and leave us in relative quiet.


Safen Up! Buggy On!

"Often wrong... Never in doubt"

the coreylama

Quote:

Originally posted by coreykite Just a quick interjection on racing rules... What about the marks? The things that mark the points that must be rounded on a course. What happens if a racer hits one?

In Autocross racing we marked the placement of the cone with spray paint on the pavement (maybe use a ground stake to draw an outline around the cone on the playa).

Then if a racer wiggled a cone but didn't knock it out of it's designated spot, there was no foul. If he knocked it over or out of it's spot it was a 3 second foul.

Since buggy racing isn't a timed race like Autocrosses are, having the racer put the cone back in place sounds like a reasonable penalty.

PS Dean rocks too... and we all roll. :frog:

Sorry guys and gals, i must have pulled that from another set or something, as rule eight should read.

8. A pass will be registered only after the next mark is rounded. Marks must be
rounded cleanly. If the mark is overturned, the competitor must go back, replace cone, then ride around it. Some consideration as to who gets to mark first shall be given.

Which just means, if Blake gets there first and messes up your line, to bad, you can't just run him over or yell at him for getting there first even though he had a bad line and your line was faster.

Ask Jeff Howard.

aoxowindsupatelmers

Point taken everyone rocks.

Susan

could we use sidewalk chalk (for marking) on the playa?

meg

Seems like it is a no brainer to me; make wider turns! After all, it suppose to be fun; right. Hit the marker, move the marker, next time you won't (maybe).

Quote:

Originally posted by meg could we use sidewalk chalk (for marking) on the playa? meg

There ya go!

Darn I wish I could go this year. It will have to be sometime next year I am still recovering from a fractured ankle.

Geez Ted,
It's not like you have to really buggy at the event.
I seldom do.
Ask anyone...

Besides, you'd be swamped by autograph seekers and groupies.
Your name is legend...
Among the hand-full of us left over from the early days.

These kids today...
No respect for where it all came from.
Most of them have never heard of the people with the vision...
Who saw potential in this wacky kite-powered sport and worked to realize some of it.

Naah... You're right.
Better wait until you're healed.
These young guns are full of "bullet-proof and bounce"
Gotta show 'em the "old guys" can still bring it.

You're always welcome at city hall.


Safen Up! Buggy On!

"Often wrong... Never in doubt"

the coreylama

HEY! I resemble that comment!!!

Just barely :D

Quote:

Originally posted by tedsfoils Darn I wish I could go this year. It will have to be sometime next year I am still recovering from a fractured ankle.

Hey Ted, I noticed from your rec.kites post that you are in Houston. Just wanted to let you know there is still a bunch of us qfoil fans buggying in Galveston, mostly at San Luis Pass. We sure would like to meet up with you sometime. Sounds like you might have some free time during your hopefully speedy recovery. Give us a shout over at the dbbb forum.

http://www.powerkiteforum.com/forumdisplay.php?fid=14

Quote:

Originally posted by mecdave Quote: Originally posted by tedsfoils Darn I wish I could go this year. It will have to be sometime next year I am still recovering from a fractured ankle. Hey Ted, I noticed from your rec.kites post that you are in Houston. Just wanted to let you know there is still a bunch of us qfoil fans buggying in Galveston, mostly at San Luis Pass. We sure would like to meet up with you sometime. Sounds like you might have some free time during your hopefully speedy recovery. Give us a shout over at the dbbb forum. http://www.powerkiteforum.com/forumdisplay.php?fid=14

Cool, I sure plan on it so please keep me informed. So if any of you need any demos let me know. I have a 3.5m ProFoil still .. getting ready to open a few more since the others have been sold.

Quote:

Originally posted by coreykite Geez Ted, It's not like you have to really buggy at the event. I seldom do. Ask anyone... Besides, you'd be swamped by autograph seekers and groupies. Your name is legend... Among the hand-full of us left over from the early days. These kids today... No respect for where it all came from. Most of them have never heard of the people with the vision... Who saw potential in this wacky kite-powered sport and worked to realize some of it. Naah... You're right. Better wait until you're healed. These young guns are full of "bullet-proof and bounce" Gotta show 'em the "old guys" can still bring it. You're always welcome at city hall. Safen Up! Buggy On! "Often wrong... Never in doubt" the coreylama

hey Corey ,
how are ya doing , just sitting here with the wifey...on the lap, dance wwhat..stuttering got my mind all screwed up.... oh sorry wrong thread
soo what is the haps? we should show the youngins just what we really are made of.. you, me and the jane-just joshing.. would love to see ya, have the wifey meet ya.. let me know where your going to be ..

Hi Ted. I am one of the buggyers that goes to Galveston that Dave mentioned. I have three of your quadrifoils and love them. I have the xs, xm and xl. I hope to meet you on the beach some day.

Susan

Hey Ted , meg, corey
been a while
Terry

You too David G.

Quote:

Originally posted by kitemaker4 Hi Ted. I am one of the buggyers that goes to Galveston that Dave mentioned. I have three of your quadrifoils and love them. I have the xs, xm and xl. I hope to meet you on the beach some day. Susan

Hey Susan,

I plan on going to buggy at Galveston soon maybe in August. My ankle should be all well by then. I will keep you posted maybe we can all have a beer together.

Hey Terry,

Yes it has been awhile. I plan on being in galveston in August maybe you could swing by.

Hey Terry & Ted,

what a nice blast from the past! hope all is well with you guys...check out www.niagarakite.com and come on up and play with us this Oct. we have a grassy open park that is a half of mile by a third of a mile for buggying and all things kiting. otherwise i will be making my way down there in the not to distant future and hope to hook up for a visit.

i am heading to Canada in the morning and will catch up when i get back.

hope you mend quickly Ted!

Meg

Just let me know the dates , I will bring the jack daniels and we can talk about old times and new adventures
Terry

Sorry no one took me up on AKA's offer....

dg

David,
The same thing has happened on the adjacent thread: Buggy Future and You.

Nobody seems to care enough to contribute.
Must be easier to just sit back and watch.

After all the years you've put into keeping this group viable, doesn't the display of apathy just break your heart?

Before your final year as President of the AKA is over, let me express my thanks.
Without your efforts I doubt we would have lasted this long.
We've had some great times and made wonderful friends around the world.

I hope to see you on a flying field soon.


Safen Up! Buggy On!

"Often wrong... Never in doubt"

the coreylama

Corey,
I am fairly new to this sport and this group of people. When I read your recent post referring to apathy, I *cringed*. Not because I was insulted or even because it is at least partly true (speaking for myself only). I cringed because I know that is not what I want to be. I have energy and skills, and a passionate love of this sport and group of people! I am willing to give time and money and effort in whatever direction seems to be the best course. These would be given freely in the hopes of expanding and making better our traction family. But alas, I am not one for deciding on a direction. I have never been on a club commitee or anything else even close. I sense most of us may be somewhat in the same boat.

So here is what I can do:
I am fairly politically correct and can be a great problem solver. I can usually quiet a situation down diplomatically, and may be a good communications person for dealing with the BLM or other state/fed agency. I hereby volunteer to do what I can to see this sport continues to thrive as it has under past and present management.

So here is a public offer of whatever services I may be able to render to that effect. I welcome contact from any and all involved in any aspect of this sport from procurement of permits/ insurance to porta-john rental. Give me a task and I will attack it!

This is a sincere offer! Feel free to contact me anytime.

Sean Jones
602-319-6656

:singing:Looks like we have the makings of the new President Elect.:singing:

:singing:All in favor, Say Hey!:singing::singing::singing::singing::singing::singing::singing::singing::singing::singing::singing:

:singing:Hey!:singing::singing::singing::singing::singing::singing::singing::singing::singing::singing::singing::singing::singing::singing::singing:

Sean,
Thanks for your offer.
Thanks for understanding I wasn't trying to offend, but merely expressing disappointment that more, deep discussion wasn't forthcoming.

I am not trying to present solutions, but encouraging fresh thinking, with fresh eyes and minds to focus on our future and how we want to accomplish our goals.

No one is running for president of anything.
That's exactly the opposite of what we need.

Finding someone to "be in charge" just perpetuates the idea of "someone else" doing what needs to be done.
It isn't anybody else's job but ours.

If we want to have a different type of play, a different relationship between fellow-riders, we have to creat a different way of structuring our group.

Perhaps one of the problems in the past has been a lack of a clear definition of the role of the Traction Committee and the Chair.
One assumption seems to have been that that group will "do things" for us.

Au Contraire... The primary function should be to co-ordinated and support activities by buggiers, not for them.

The traditional role of Chair of the Traction Committee, I believe, should be redefined. By us.
With clear goals in mind.

That's really the gist of the adjacent thread: Buggy Future and You.

My dream is to hear from a wide variety of riders, hash out our desires and differences, come to a general agreement, and get back to buggying.

My dissapointment comes from the numbers of readers to the thread, without getting much in response.
My dread is that as our game doesn't require much organization, and inertia and momentum being what they are, there might not be enough urgency.
The issues wallow and become tedious and nothing is done.

Just like before.

But I do have hope.


Safen Up! Buggy On!

"Often wrong... Never in doubt"

the coreylama

hey sean
thanks for stepping up to the plate.
see!!!!!thats what we need. new blood= new ideas.

>The traditional role of Chair of the Traction Committee, I believe, should be redefined. By us.
With clear goals in mind.

Exactly!!

I've got 100 days left and would love to help all of you facilitate what ever you want. This post started out with the observation that AKA was n't doing much. And my reply was that AKA is each of us.,

Thanks for the kind words, Corey. Been an interesting ride and I appreciate all of you and all we have accomplished more than I can say.

dg