question that needs answering is will you be harnessed or will the link between the kite and you/the bug be your arms? harnessed with a foil I would go with the bigger bug for obvious reasons, but no harness and a rev I would go with the lighter bug for obvious reasons. yes a rev will pull any bug but can your arms hold up or how will the control be affected if you do manage a harness with a rev with the added weight of the bigger bug.

Initially, I will just use the handles to run the kit

Darned trigger finger! :-)
I won't have a harness at first, but according to the head Revmaster, you can cross link the handles and use a harness, so that's what I hope to move toward.
Bob

based on that I would go with a lighter bug modified for comfort. just my opinion, there are opinions hear that have way more experience.

Quote:

Originally posted by Bmwbob Darned trigger finger! :-) I won't have a harness at first, but according to the head Revmaster, you can cross link the handles and use a harness, so that's what I hope to move toward. Bob

correct about strop line and good idea to get into the swing of things before attaching yourself to the sail.
you can add a quick release (Wichard QR?) between strop and harness for some added safety.
also(again)...in a nut shell big beefy buggies absorb more of the harshness of the terrain rather than transfering it all directly to you(rider).
on a small buggy i feel i'm riding "ON" a 'contraption' of sorts.
while riding "IN" a big buggy i feel i'm operating a proper vehicle of sorts.
***larger buggy generally mean more robust. there are some , myself included, that have had to put a weld or two on 'less' robust buggies.

also keep in mind riding without a harness with side rails you run a risk of injuring your rib cage, I was lucky to get through that phase with minimal damage.

of course my last statement is for the less experienced . starting out with no harness and side rails can be painful but it sounds like you have some experience.

We have had 2 PL buggies that the downpost welds failed on due to the rough nature of our park.
The seating set up that comes stock with the PL may be an issue with your back?

If I was looking at the PL buggy I would be budgeting for Van's conversion or AWOC's back rest. As I mentioned do a search on Sysmic buggies. If you want a nice looking set up the Sysmic looks the job? BigKid has a lightly used one. The only one I know of in North America but they are popular over the pond !

I have found Van to be very good to work with. I am not clear what Chris H is on about but as you see he seems alone and unwilling to explain why he has mad such an inflamitory statement ?

It's just my opinion, that's it. I am not unwilling to explain why, I just don't check the forum every single day and when I do I don't check every thread. I hadn't been back to this one until today. I have never dealt with Van and my opinion is not based on him personally. My opinion has to do with the price and the product, I just don't care for it. That's all guys.

You're right, it was rude of me not to give an explanation, I apologize for that. I will not apologize for having an opinion, though. We're all entitled to our opinions, it's ok if you don't agree with mine. I'm fine with it.

It was't so much your opinion (you are entitled to one) it was the suggested manner (very negative) to which it was put out there without explanation. Made one wonder what "Bad" thing transpired between you and Van when in fact it really wasn't anything.

Yeah, I didn't think of it that way and I'll try to be more considerate next time.

Quote:

Originally posted by ChrisH Yeah, I didn't think of it that way and I'll try to be more considerate next time.

You and Bigkid need some time together

On the beach - in a buggy (not together unless you really want to)

Quote:

Originally posted by ChrisH I have never dealt with Van and my opinion is not based on him personally. My opinion has to do with the price and the product, I just don't care for it. That's all guys. You're right, it was rude of me not to give an explanation, I apologize for that. I will not apologize for having an opinion, though. We're all entitled to our opinions, it's ok if you don't agree with mine. I'm fine with it.

If you don't care, you don't mention it. By taking the opportunity to randomly slam him and his work without EVER SEEING it? My goodness. To say I "don't care" for people who make such massive judgements without data would be a pretty big understatement.

There are thousands of things I haven't seen and wouldn't buy. I never said you or the OP shouldn't buy his buggies, I said I wouldn't.

I would never buy that carbon fiber buggy. Haven't seen it.
I would never buy an F1 Falcon. Haven't seen it.
I would never buy an Acura NSX concept car. Haven't seen it.

Get my point? It seems to me that the reason people take offense to this is because the owner of the company is on the forum/they know him/they like his product and/or the man himself. If he was some random guy that nobody knew, we probably wouldn't be having this conversation. Again, my opinion.

When I say that I wouldn't purchase something, 999 times out of 1000, it has nothing to do with the owner of the company. That is true of this case as well.

The beauty of a public forum is that people can say whatever they want, sometimes people don't like it. Oh well, life goes on.

I'm done.

I think the impression of what you said Chris was misinterpreted because you used Van's name specifically (which made it appear personal and negatively reflecting on Van himself) and said "never". To say "never" means that no matter what development path or price structure or anything else that could change over time, you would "never" buy one of his products. I'd personally have to have a really bad customer service problem to word it like that and mean it. Without that I might only raise questions or concerns I might have about the product (or about Van himself if my problem was with him personally).

That said, no one can say you don't deserve to have your opinion. Expect sparks to fly for the way you presented it though.

Fair enough, lesson learned.

Thanks for straightening that out Chris.

I suppose I came to Van's defence because He is a U.S. maker who is trying real hard and from everything I have heard backs up his product . I have met Van and think he is a great guy. Always striving for better. U.S. needs builders like Him and I think He deserved an explanation. I am pretty sure people got the impression you had a much bigger issue ?

We all have opinions. Now yours is clear to me.

:bigok:

Hey guys ... I was a little shock to see that statement from Chris also because I couldn't remember what happen between me and him. At first I just thought I was getting old and need to contact Chris to see what I have done wrong in the past.

I'm glad the explanation did show that it wasn't a personal attack , just an opinion that was misunderstood. Not everyone in this world will like me or my product , that is normal. If you don't believe me , ask my X-wife

For those of you few that have deal with me, you will know that I don't do things in volume, just custom work because I have a normal job that I go to on the weekdays and 4 kids to support. Just like you, I have to make time to take my wife out to dinner for Valentine. In between all that , I have a love for fabrication. I build arcade machines, CNC machines , and buggies. None of my buggies have ever been sold for the price advertised. I always give deals to PKF members and no, not everyone will get the same discount. I've sold some for $100 above my cost in materials and I've also sold some $100 below my cost. For those of you that have dealt with me, you know I am very fair and always make sure you are happy with what you got. I've even offer to replace any parts that might have look a little "off" because I had a bad day and didn't noticed.



To sum it up, I don't have any hard feelings against Chris or his opinion but I do appreciate all of you coming to my defense .. this tells me I have good friends on here, not just customers.


Now lets get back to discussion ... My recommendation for grass??? Keep it light. Here are what I think the choicest are for grass : VTT cricket, Flexifoil navaro, peter lynn XR+ with my kit or Kent's back rest

Wow, funny how I get in the middle of stuff and didn't say a word. Chris, you and I can have a long talk behind everyone's back and they wont have a clue. Just kidding, I will hear about that one.....
Am I right in assuming that you have not rode an Ivanpah buggy? Have you rode any buggies yet? If you could possibly wait for Jibe and show up you would be able to try out more buggies than you will have time to ride.
With every buggy, there are pro's and con's, money, fit, size, weight, transportability, color, bling, local service, parts and on and on. Most of the people here have rode a buggy or 2 and they are telling what they have, and what they know of there buggy. I could tell you about good and bad of most bugs on the market. I can only think of 3 that I have not owned and one of those I did try out. Any buggy is a good buggy if it is tuned for you. Doesnt matter who made it. But it does matter if you have tried it before you bought it.
For the most part any buggy will be fine at slow speeds in light winds. The problems start to show up when the wind picks up and the speeds increase. If you have no desire to go fast or go out in some good winds any buggy will work fine.
I was one of those guys that was happy with just moving down the beach and having the kite pull me. Then I wanted more, and more, well you get the drift...

Thank you all for ending the cat fight!
I can't recall the number of times when someone I didn't know that well took a comment I'd made online differently than I intended. Absent body language and tone of voice, things can be misconstrued.
Buggies: No, I've not (as yet) ridden a Ivanpah. The only things I have ridden was my old PL folder, and the homemade PVC one I built (which worked fine, BTW). And both of those were over 8 years ago.
I think waiting for JIBE would be fine (we're taking our RV and staying at the campground) but then I would be jumping into the midst of people who KNOW what they're doing with ZERO buggy experience using the big Rev as an engine.
That, and think of the traffic hazard I'd create! :-)
I know it's probably a vain effort, but I'd like a buggy that:
1. Didn't require re-mortgaging the house to buy (must be stainless steel, however).
2. Wouldn't give me a hernia to load and unload by myself, nor demand that I add another shed to our tiny house to store it.
3. Was fun for clowning around,doing spins, some jumps, etc.
4. Didn't go all hyper weird when (someday) I get to the beach with a good wind and finally have the big Rev figures out and want to go FAST. AND,
5. Doesn't constantly remind me that I once broke L4 on a bad skydive landing.
Am I dreaming, or does such a critter exist?
If not, I'll probably just buy the Ivanpah and suffer all but at the beach, or the Frankenbuggy and gaze lustfully at everyone else's premium rides! :-)
Soooo..... Is this another search for the Holy Grail, or what?
Bob

The only downside you would have to the Ivanpah I have here would be the weight. I have always said it is a heavy buggy - designed specifically for high speed runs and stability. Weight on the stainless steel Ivanpah is around 89 lbs. with tires/wheels complete. For comparison, the PL bigfoot buggy (stock) weighs in around 50lbs.

All the other points you have mentioned the Ivanpah would fit perfectly.

Other options would obviously be the PL Bigfoot buggy with the back rest and/or Van's rail kit. I am not sure if Van's rail kit is stainless steel, last I heard it was steel tubing that was painted. I may be wrong, perhaps Van can clarify. Price wise, you would be less money for the Stainless Steel Ivanpah I have here than you would be for a Bigfoot buggy and Van's rail kit. Something to consider.

If you hare heading to JIBE, Angus has his Ivanpah buggy there that you can try out.

Also sent you an e-mail laying out the different options.

Dont be concerned with being a newbie and showing up for an event like Jibe or any of the others. It is the best place for a newb to get alot of info and skills in a very short time. Anyone will be able to help with any needs you may have. Lots of buggies and kites and other stuff to try out, find what you like and see how it fits.
Who knows, you could purchase everything and anything while you are there and be set up with all the know how to use it.
I know for myself, I hope to leave most of what I bring to WW and Jibe this spring, (its all down hill going there, going home is up hill and I would like to be as empty as possible). Could be some good deals, (may even have an Ivanpah II to let go for the right person).

Don't worry about traffic. If you are rolling, all the other buggiers can work with you. You've buggied before so you would fit right in at JIBE. Really friendly bunch as well that will love to talk with you and share their equipment as well. You could spend 5-10 minutes in various buggies and know what you like in less than an hour.

kent, you are correct. it is made with dom steel tubing then powdercoated or painted with por15. once you put the cover on it you cant see the rails anyways

We will have about any buggy you can imagine at jibe. PL, ivanpah, flexi, VTT, Xxtreme, corsair, libre, home brew....


The buggy Buffet!

I'll start saving my money right now for WBB......

Quote:

Originally posted by bigkid I hope to leave most of what I bring to WW and Jibe this spring, (its all down hill going there, going home is up hill and I would like to be as empty as possible). Could be some good deals, (may even have an Ivanpah II to let go for the right person).

What, where, and when is WBB?
Bob

Never mind. I found it NJ in April is a bit too far for me.
Bob

Another perspective:
All of my riding is on grass and I still break down my buggy every time I ride.
I started with an XR+ and it worked great for me for the first couple of years that I buggied. As I gained skill and confidence I was finding myself with more and more back pain and strain from holding down the kite in a "sit on" buggy on hard tack passes culminating in me getting skid marks on my shoulders at NABX. Vans rails either on a full buggy or as an upgrade to a Flexi or PL will put you into a "sit in" situation.

Leading up to last years NABX I was seriously eying the VTT Stinger which I ended up getting from his proxy at the event. As has been state the weight and width do wonders for the confidence in the buggy and the ability to hold a given sail and wind.
Even though it is a medium/ large buggy I can [and do] disassemble it every time [no choice in a Cooper] - loosen four bolts, undo six to make a front wheel/ fork/ down-tube, seat/ rail segment, axle, and two rear wheels.
The maneuverability and handling is outstanding on "tight" fields such as the 4 -6 soccer field spaces that I always ride. as has been stated you would need to up size in kite by a meter or two for a heavier buggy and or big tires. The buggy drove this more that going to bigger tires which I did at different times.
Despite his buggies being custom I think you would find his prices to be comparable to favorable to most if not all of the medium to large buggies on the market.

just my 2 cents worth.