Crap man. I'm so sorry that happened to you.

Safest traction kite, IMO is the Peak. You get to depower for gusts and it never flies too fast through the window to build volatile power, but still has a decent amount of pull (but very little lift). After 2 years of depower, I can't imagine going back to FB.

Inland winds suck. My rule is to stay home for gusts > 100% of average. And I try to never push the envelope unless conditions are ideal (yeah, I'm looking at you, you spoiled beach people .

I figure our #1 tool for safety is good judgement. The rest is too variable to be reliable.

I had a thought on safety...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=edmqTODMZC4

Quote: Originally posted by 3shot

A few days have passed and you have had some time to reflect. Have you figured out just how high you got lofted? Not that that is relevant. Was just curious. I feel for ya bud. I've really enjoyed what little time I've flown my NS2s. My 7m just showed up today. John has some amazing videos. Your surgery will go fine bud. Get well soon!

Mmmmm... I'm guessing between 10 and 15 feet, but in all honesty I really can't say... If any of the park goers saw, they didn't stop to either help or say how high up I looked... Coulda been higher coulda been lower.

Back from surgery now and I'm gonna post about it a new thread.

@ proletariat... Thanks, Dave... We'll see you at JIBE, and we should definitely hang out more this year.

I just wanted to say this has been one of the most informative threads I could have ever have come across from a safety stance point. I'm currently flying static thinking of making the jump to buggy since it sounds like land boarding is nuts in gusty winds like where I live. This thread was a wake up call for me to slow down my thoughts and evaluate my approach to this change since I fly alone with no help or instruction.

It certainly makes sense now why ssayre told me to "popeye arm it" with my Twister 5.5 in a U2U recently. I feel a bit over confident flying static because I can dump to the kite killers in a heartbeat now mainly because I've gotten so used to having to bail when the wind gusts so hard here. The scary thing was I was thinking of hooking in and buying a harness since I've seen so many videos of buggy riders doing it I figured it would take the load off of one of my wrists that I've had problems with but after reading this there is no way I'm buying a harness.

The funny thing is I think it was some of your videos I stumbled across on vimeo that I was watching that even gave me the idea. It seemed like a safe thing because in all the videos you were in control but I guess it's the one you are not looking for that you have to worry about. Great thread man, sorry for your injury but this thread post is invaluable to newbies like me.

Bit late to this thread but I'd like to add my thoughts / experience on the single skin side, I fly mostly NPWs which are pretty close to the Nasa stars (although I do also mix it up with foils / depower). Whilst they are deemed as a very low lift kite, they can and will lift. It's happened to me a couple of times and to be honest flying more to the edge of the wind range, fuelled with a bit of over confidence I sent my 8m straight up and as it climbed closer to the apex the wind picked up, the power increased as the kite climbed and up I went, only about four feet, completely unprepared for a loft (as like most thought they don't lift) I just went with it as the last thing I wanted was the kite collapsing in any way and dropping me. My little trip took me about 30ft across the field before slowly bringing me down.
So I suppose what I'm getting at is never under-estimate a kite of any type, either being inexperienced or over confident may or will catch you out at some point.
Kite killers: for me are a last resort, don't fly too over-powered, I've had 3 sets snap on me, flying over-powered the kite handles snatched out of my hands, the killers just stretched, then snapped leaving the kite to it's own devices. Don't get me wrong I always wear them but I am now more mindful that control is key and will now step down a kite size rather being lazy and carrying on over powered..

Thanks guys ... I'm a good 3+ weeks out of surgery with about 5-6 more for recovery. It's been difficult but I'm doing well.

@bigE... I appreciate your input on the single skin stuff, you are really a great resource when it comes to all things NPW. I recognize that they do lift, and so long as I remember how I hurt myself, I hope I won't allow myself to become overconfident.

@888Huskers... Thanks for your words. Don't completely rule out a harness, I said the same thing 2-3 yrs ago when I was just starting out. It's not the thing itself that's unsafe, it's how you use it. I unfortunately, in my overconfidence, did not use the set up I had to its safest capacity which was a dumb move on my part. A. It was gusty so I probably shouldn't have been using it to start with B. Since I use a QR snapshackle and pulley, I should have had the quick release tethered to the buggy to make it Auto QR, but thought that was a hassle and that I could manually undo it if needed... I found out the hard way that I was wrong. (One word: overconfident) I'd say don't rule it out completely but DO recognize the safety issues and fully abide by them.

:D The thing is they are much more predictable if you send it up, you can "feel" the power steadily increase rather than a snatch, you do have a bit more time to react to the power and either re-direct or haul on the brakes.

And THAT'S what sounds so appealing... cuz broken foots is no fun... fo sho

BigE, have you seen all the coolness of the bar/depow system that steffan has developed with the NS2/3? if I can find John H's vid I'll add it... all the safeties ext. make it look uber awesome sauce.

That's exactly what I like so much about them. So far, they have given me plenty of time to hit my safety. FB has a tendency to snatch your A$s before you even realize it's happening. I have noticed most injuries occur with experienced riders, so over confidence and becoming too comfortable must be major contributors to accidents.

@bigE: Thanks for the reminder to not let your guard down. The nasa's do have a limit before they can lose their temper
Luckily they work very well at the bottom of their wind range so you don't need to push it. My 4 meter winds are the winds that scare me the most with the gusts that usually exceed it's range. I'm hoping the peak helps with that.

Quote: Originally posted by ssayre

......I have noticed most injuries occur with experienced riders, so over confidence and becoming too comfortable must be major contributors to accidents........

really?
I have no desire to hash this out or point fingers, so I will only say that its not experience, confidence, or comfort.
luck of the draw, karma, your time, it's not a mater of anything but time. You will have an OBE at some point, the question is how bad will it be.

I personally know of 8 people that have been hurt enough to go to the hospital and spend months waiting to heal before returning to work. 4 of those dont fly anymore.
Of those 8 people only 0 of them were fast enough to pull in the brakes, pull the QR, or alter the end result.

Quote: Originally posted by ssayre

......I have noticed most injuries occur with experienced riders, so over confidence and becoming too comfortable must be major contributors to accidents........

really?
I have no desire to hash this out or point fingers, so I will only say that its not experience, confidence, or comfort.
luck of the draw, karma, your time, it's not a mater of anything but time. You will have an OBE at some point, the question is how bad will it be.

I personally know of 8 people that have been hurt enough to go to the hospital and spend months waiting to heal before returning to work. 4 of those dont fly anymore.
Of those 8 people only 0 of them were fast enough to pull in the brakes, pull the QR, or alter the end result.

A freak gust doesn't care if you have experience or if your a beginner. My point is that when we become more comfortable harnessing wind, then it's a little easier to let your guard down when we shouldn't.

I understand.
Most of what I see isnt from letting down ones guard, but a small bit of knowledge one thinks is worthy of telling the world how it done correctly. After my accident everyone told me what I did wrong, sad part about all the expertise that was told to me was from everyone that WASN'T THERE THAT DAY. Out of the mouths of those who didnt have a clue came all the wisdom in the world.
I dont think for one moment to know it all, just the opposite. I know my limits and expect things to happen when I push the envelope. The key to all of this is to eliminate the possibilities.
Everyone says to keep the kite low to eliminate an OBE. Ever tried to complete an upwind turn? How about stopping in a buggy for a minute and putting the kite at the zenith?
No body talks about the Apexx buggies anymore, how come? They were designed with the siderails that didn't let you come out of the buggy. Good idea? Yes and No.
Do you wear a half helmet or a 3/4 or full helmet? Yes, yes, yes, no, no, no. They have good and bad points for each style.

I could go on for some time on whats good or bad about lots of things in this sport. Untill you have 1st hand knowledge on a subject you really dont know.
My biggest problem is that I have spent over $100.000.00 on buggies, boards, kites, handles, bars, lines, tires, wheels, cameras, and everything else thats kite related. Tested, picked apart, broken, altered, destroyed, redesigned, returned and thrown away more than most of you will ever see in your life.
Most of what I have found is that its all about you, the end user. Which kite is best? How about the buggy? Its not the kite or buggy, its you and your ability, your style, your expertise, your knowledge, and your desire that makes one better than another.
Same with safety. Do you wear a helmet? I don't. Why do you wear a helmet? I wont have another OBE so thats not a concern. Will someone crash into me and do me bodily harm? Thats up to you.
if I go out and push the envelope, I put on my helmet, carbon fiber chest protector, hook into my AQR and tell my wife I am going out to play. In 5 years the worst thing that has happened was 2 broken fingers from the handles ripping out of my hands when I broke both power lines on a 3.5m kite in 25mph wind while performing a 180 shotgun in the buggy.
enough for now, im sure I have pissed off everyone.

Thanks 888huskers, look what you've done now by reviving this thread

Jeff, I always appreciate your insight.

Personally, I take kite safety very seriously, but I face more safety hazards on a regular basis for my work than my occasional kiting. We take a risk every day we leave the house, so short of living in a bubble I try to make every effort to stay safe no matter what I'm doing. The chance of injury exists in many activities. For example, I'm playing indoor soccer and I volunteered to be goalie. Another guy on team said his wife wouldn't let him play goalie anymore due to 2 injuries and 2 surgeries. That kind of surprised me, I didn't really think of (over 40) rec league indoor soccer as being dangerous but it just goes to show you can get hurt no matter what you do.

Death is inevitable. Until it comes for me I will keep on pushing the sport and make sure the batteries are fresh in my invisibility suit.

Huskers I will add something about hooking in with a harness. I am lucky enough to have Ivanpah Dry Lake as my home field riding spot. Speed is a relative thing, but the wind was really off if I don't hit 40 mph every time out. I never buggied that fast before riding at a dry lakebed but that speed comes very easily with very little wind at all when you remove most of the rolling resistance. I've found that generally, I'm my most vulnerable at speeds under 10 mph. There is a calming effect on the kite to have the apparent wind streaming by the kite, which seems to stabilize it's flight. So given that, I am my most anxious in sketchy conditions when I'm launching and getting in the buggy along with a slow speed change in direction. Every time I've had an OBE, it was at speeds under 10 mph.

Regarding keeping the kite low to avoid getting lofted, that really depends on the speed and how powered up the kite is. At speeds into the 50+ mph range I might feel confident to take the kite high in a slow controlled manner so the power will back off to allow me to do an upwind turn, but not always. If I'm uneasy about taking the kite up high for a turn, my next tactic would be to keep the kite between 9 and 10:00 and see if I can make progress turning upwind. If I'm just sliding and not able to turn upwind, then I would turn the buggy almost downwind with just enough angle to keep the kite flying but not generating power. This will let me slow down enough to be able to turn upwind and turn around. Everyone has to know what their options are when things get dicey.

Regarding helmets, the only time I would go out without a helmet is if conditions have been very docile and nothing indicates that's going to change much. Winds would have to be so light that the session would be more described as a stroll rather than a ride. I'm not sure I've ever ridden a buggy on a dry lake without a helmet but maybe in a lightwind session where I'm really just trying to stay moving. The things that can come into contact with my head include but are not restricted to the ground, other riders, obstacles in the riding area, and my buggy. Even a perfect passive safety release can't protect me from all these dangers to a level I would choose not to wear a helmet. This is a choice everyone has to make for themselves.

As long as I'm doing this, I'm still in student mode. I don't think the time will ever come that I'm not looking for a way to increase my knowledge and skills. You never know when a nugget of knowledge is coming your way or who might share it.

@ssayre no harm intended just throwing in my two cents as a newbie that I really appreciated the info. I think if anything it reafirmed my suspicion that I should get a small kite to learn on since my winds out here are irratic at times. I'll save the details of that discussion for another thread. The important thing is I appreciate the honesty of this thread. It's good to see the feedback on safety not only from a gear aspect but as a mindset.

@BeamerBob All good points and well taken. I'll keep them in mind as I begin my journey into kite buggying.

husker....do not fear the harness, but always respect the kite
hooking in is part of the natural progression...you will know when its time, when its time