I picked up some pulleys to try out this on my 8m kite. The kite does respond better with the brakes for turning, and this should do the trick with a bar.

Yes... you can re-bridle a fixed bridle kite for depower, but not always with the results you want. The profiles and design of the kite play a big part of this.. or at least that's what I'm told.

I tried the crossover on my bar for my smaller kites a few days ago and it works well. I can still turn the little devil several times on a wingtip. Very impressive with a smaller kite actually. Flew a Litle Devil 3.0 and 2.1 and a SkyTiger 26 and all did very well, even suprisingly enough the SKyTiger (my first time flying one)

One side note though, definitely wear some gloves as your hands will occassionally rub against the bottom of the pulley or the rope holding it on, and also occassionally the brake leaders will graze the top of your hand, but still wasnt too uncomfortable without gloves for me to fly.

Thanks K2B,
I think I'll try the setup with my 3 and an extra ( small ) bar I have ! Then I'll see if the 4.5 works best on the smaller or larger bar.

My experience with depowering a fixed bridal kite is that although it will probably work out ok, you end up losing a fair bit of the low wind ability of the kite.

I've used and abused my Concept Air Freestyle 3.5m foil quite a bit to play with depower rigs. It's a low/mid aspect foil kind of like a Bullet or LD, but comes with A's, B's, and C's each grouped to their own secondaries so re-rigging is easy. I don't think it has much if any reflex in the foil, so it's not particularly autostable. But like a LD, it rarely overflies the zenith and is very recoverable.

On UDS II rig, handles or bar: Needs more wind than when used as fixed bridle on handles. But the UDS II on handles comes down darn close, and the finesse in turns and ability to adjust for gusts is amazing.

The UDS II with a bar definitely needs more wind. Part of this may be due to the change in foil shape vs a fixed bridle as the camber and AOA change, but I think on this small kite it is mostly do to the extra weight of all the rigging. UDS II is very smooth, progressive (works great on VioKites too...).

Wing Warp/Ozone frenzy type rig on handles or bar: One less pulley stage makes it more bang on/bang off than UDS II. It still gives a decent amount of depower. On this kite, the AB's need to be combined on the front and the C on the middle pulley. Putting the A's alone on the front and the BC's on the pulley stinks - the kite creases in front of the B's.

I just tested a variation on the crossover bar in light winds, static (my field was deep and narrow) on a fixed bridle Kitesurfer XXL 7+m (classic Robert Graham kite). I added another pair of pulleys and a long (15" throw depower line through the bar to my Wichard shackle and spreader bar. In this form your arms carry the load. Can be altered to have the depower rope through a Harken cam cleat and fairlead for tensioning or releasing the brakes by hand, and then you's use a fixed bar harness loop with safety like Snowbird.

Kite brakes on both sides when you let the bar out, brakes on either side when you turn the bar, with proportionately more braking as the bar is closer to you. Also has a safety leash ala Pablo's if in distress or to help reverse launch the kite. Kite turned well on a 50 cm bar. I'll lay it out and get some pics this weekend.

krumly

nice krumly, I was going to try some variations of my own on the crossover setup today or tommorow. This thread is morphing into something very interesting indeed. Looking forward to your photos krumly. will post mine soon.

Probably the most through site on depower bridle and rig modifications for foil. Go through it carefully and you'll find what you need for UDSII type and WingWarp/Frenzy type rigs:

http://www.powerkite.me.uk/

A lot of good pics and notes on bar and handle mods, including crossovers and simple pulley set-ups for fixed bridle kites:

http://www.freewebs.com/rawkitez/barsandhandles.htm

(I'm not to keen on the "Harness Attached Killers" mod - the larksheads from the killer strop pull the brake lines right through the stake loops. This needs some work, or let the killer strop outside the loops, but then the whole mess hangs low and you can step right through it...).

More good stuff on crossover bars (go to the "Accesories" link:

http://homepage.ntlworld.com/g.carline1/tmp/

And the developer of the UDS system:

http://www.paraflysurf.ch/uds-ii.htm

His Spider Bar would looks like the ultimate way to get crossover, safety and depower and while transferring all the load to your harness. It just looks like it's got a little too much custom machining and little expensive bearings that would seize up or wear leaders out in a hurry.

krumly

Attached is a schematic of the crossover bar I tried on my Kitesurfer XXL fixed bridle foil.

Sorry for using an attachment, but I'm not familiar with serving photos from another site. I'll figure that out soon.

krumly

Here is the setup laid out on the floor with the bar in (brakes out).

The "depower" line is 1/4" Amsteel, the leaders are 1/*' Amsteel. The pulleys and brakeline are left from my VioKite mod - I usually use Ronstan KiteBocks.

My thinking is if you want to add a QR fixed harness line to the bar, you could run the depower line through the Harken Camatic cleat and fairlead, using a ball below the bar as a handle to adjust it manually. DOn't get automatic braking with bar release, but it does move the front line forces to your harness instead of your arms. I haven'ttested the set-up this way yet, so use caution.

krumly

OK, this is it and I'll leave everyone alone.

Final attached pic is of my modifed Wichard QR shackle. I use these shackle and thimbles on almost all my kites now.
Amazing bar throw - it's more compact than even a small chicken loop. And you can spin the leash, though you have to help it. Very helpful with all the line on this bar set-up.

Its basically a clone of the Chicken Release, though I've seen many others very similar.

I use a Loos ss continous oval, heavy sailmakers thimble - rigid, and big radii for clean release and minimal wear at the shackle bail. 3/16" or 1/4" Amsteel depower lines spliced around the thimble with a Brummel Splice:

http://www.neropes.com/SPL_12Strand_EyeSpliceBrummel.aspx

This splice won't slip loose if you don't stitch it. Dave Culp pointed that out on Instructables a while back.

krumly

Hey krumly, so that bar mod is in conjunction with a depower mod for your fixed bridal foil???

Also, did you get a good look at the Trucknut crossover setup said designed for gunner 221? It looks like he has tied both brake lines together with a couple of feet of line and then ran that through his safety leash and 2 O-rings that are dead tied to the power leaders? Looks like he also tied the power leaders to the leash also. Seems like a lot of line out in front of your before you are even connected to the kite, but also free's up the bar for room.

Looks like it seems a little less responsive and like less bar pressure (if that makes sense here) with the crossover so far away from the actual turning of the bar. Would that be right?

Looking at Krumly's design, looks very similar to the setup I use, but with the option to apply the brakes with the kite going straight.

No No krumly, keep it coming!

Pablo is right - the extra pulley stage in my setup allows for the kite to brake when the bar is released. I like this in the gusty inland winds we have around here - it lets me set the kite up to hit the zenith on low winds, but still apply brake to the whole kite to drop it back if it starts to overfly in a gust.

A turn on the bar also applies brakes to the side your pulling in on and releases brake to the side your letting out on. The more the bar is pulled in toward you, the proportionately LESS brake input is applied, same as on the Gunner 221 set-up from the Kiting Cobbler website.

I tried the Gunner 221 set-up. It is Pablo's set-up that also adds brake to the whole kite when the bar is pulled in. I found moving the pulleys from the bar ends (as in Pablo's rig) to further down the front leaders (which is what gives you the ability to sheet in/out and a safety on the Gunner 221 rig) gave less advantage and proportional change in brake input as you move the bar in and out because line tension drew the pulleys so close together it was like flying with a 10"- 12" wide bar.

The solution seemed obvious at first. Slide everything back down to the bar (like Pablo's rig), use the depower line and center ring to your harness (like the Gunner 221 rig) and add a rear line safety leash (like Pablo's rig). Problem is you now have minimal change of the brake line length when sheeting the bar in or out - with a 14"-15" bar throw, it was enough to apply brakes to the whole kite as a tweak, but not enough to really brake the kite to land it or reverse fly.

I started playing with some other ideas on paper and came up with my current layout. It has a lot of string, but it seems to work well on my 3.5 m and 7.1m foils. It is for fixed bridle kites - there is no pulley bridle set-up up at the kite. I use UDS II or WingWarp/Frenzy type pulley set-ups at the kite with a standard depower bar or handles for my depower foils.

Having just returned from a few days of consistent coastal winds on the Outer Banks, I'm really jealous of folks who kite on the coasts or the playa. In our gusty crap, I'm liking my VioKite Proteus with UDSII and my PL GII, but I still love playing with fixed bridle foils. There were a few times snow kiting on lakes this winter where the winds were superlight. Guys are trying to get their 16 m bows or big C's up, but the wing loading is still too high. I take out the old .5 oz Icarex Kitesurfer on handles, work the kite, and cruise off. Not fast, but moving while they're packing up.

krumly

ok, I see what's happening in your setup. So when yu push the bar out, it puts slack in both brake lines and when you pull the bar in it puts tension on the brakes, right? So then it's de-power in the sense of it's on-or-off, no adjustment in the angle of attack. very clever, will have to try it out, but with my own touch, of course:frog:

sorry, meant bbar in powered up and bar out slack in brake lines:ticking:

K2B -

Bar Out = brakes on (tight). Bar In = brakes off (slack). I realize my sketch showed the chicken loop close to the bar in both modes, which is wrong. I cleaned up the sketch and made some notes which might make it clearer (see attachment).

In really light winds, the little extra weight of this rig can drop the brakes more than if you were just on handles.

krumly

I may be missing something here but I am finding that most times I want to apply brake to pull back I am already in my static loop ( strop ) and have a ( wonderfully ) free hand to tweek the brake when needed. I already find that all the extra line swinging on the pulley makes line tangle a minor issue . More pulleys might mean more agro to accomplish something I can do manually now ? Also when I let go of my bar it doesn't usually run away very far so I have no trouble with fast recovery.
I see that the plan works just not yet sold on trying it. Let us know how it works for you.

well what can i say, what a great set-up. I had made a copy of a PKD twister bar set-up but was not happy with the turning ability of my foils on it.

I have been looking all over the net for a solution, and it now looks like i've found one.

always have used handles, on a Ronstan Pulley, and as we all know pulleys and sand/salt don't mix too well (when used to take the total pulling force on the power lines). So i want to switch over to a bar system.

It's now 2.45am and i have just finished making this rig, how simple and easy!!! it took a whole 15 mins!

Now this fan-bloody-tastic set-up has found its way over to Australia!!

Well done, please pass on my thanks to the undisclosed inventer. I will be adding this set-up to my web site as i think everyone i know who flys will be interested also.

Well i made a few small adjustments to the set-up made early this morning while on the beach flying my 5.5m Brooza, and this set-up really works well, exactly what i had been looking for.

I'd like to include this bar arrangement/set-up on my web site, do i need permission?

thanks all who have contributed to this thread, posted comments, and to the original designer.

Next i will be setting up my 7m + 12.5m Pansh kites in the same way.

I had been flying my 7m Pansh Blaze using a Simple bar with standard handles attached to the leader attachment points of the bar via the strop attachment points, giving the effect of a bar with the ability to use the brakes on the handles in the normal fashion. This was clumsy but did work, but now i have the best solution to solve slow turning larger foils, and magicly transform them into very usable kites.

Thank you.

Put together a small bar for pretty much free today . I had all the bits and peices laying around. I'll put it on the 3m brooza and see how it works on small kites. I hope it does. I think I prefer running on a bar even in the buggy. + my old 3 was on a bar and I find beginers take better to one at 1st.

Soon as we get wind I'll hook it up and have a go ! Doesn't look like that's today .

1st kite I tried this set-up on was a 9m buster. Not sure about Pansh but I agree Busters like it !

Whitkite,

Go ahead, I know the guys who designed it have no commercial plans for it. To be honest, this idea ended up on the cutting room floor. I got it to squeeze a little more out of my 9m Buster I. Apparently there's a way to get the same kite to behave well and just start hitting the sweet spot in 20mph winds. I'm going to have to wait for them to share that one though.

So feel free to share the crossover bar, really it's not that new of an idea, just a simple way to pull it off.

Sbowbird, after much consideration I have decided to scrap my samllest bar and turn my largest bar into my smallest bar. Even with a smaller kite, because you are flying it in high winds usually, there is still about just of much force at work going through the lines and the smaller bar provides less leverage. So if you go to a smaller bar for a smaller kite, I would say use a bar that is noramlly for a larger kite, and so-on all the way up. So I would use a bar for a 4-5m for a 2-3m crossover setup.

As soon as I get a day off i will be fiddling with different variations. i thing I know for sure is I am going to go with the largest pulleys possible, as this creates less of an extreme angle for the line to work through, and also less movement/pull needed to go the same distance. Also going to try and compound the pulley system to get more line travel for less bar input needed

I have also made a "handle" for the brake lines,basically tying a piece of line from the front of the brake leader back to itself close to the bar. I piece of vinyl tubing makes it hold a nice "u"shape too.

now i have been using this crossover bar on my 5.5m brooza, and my 7m pansh blaze, for some time (i have left a bar attached to both kites since making them) i have found that this system makes these kites react much faster and adds lots of speed to turning these foils, however i was not happy with the way my 4m buster went on this bar system, and found switching back to handles gave me about the same benefit as the bar did on the larger foils.

i would not really want to try using it on my even smaller kites or my Higher aspect kites just yet. i love the extra power i can get from my century by applying a little brake on both sides.

The bar seems to be working pretty good on the 3m Brooza. The brakes took some fine tuning but work well now. I'm not sure the size of bar but it is pretty short. From my old 9m airush. I find I have no problem tweeking the brakes together to pull back when hooked in. It's not usually a problem flying one handed and unhooked to do the same. I'm going to put the 4.5 bullet on a bar as well and see if I like it as a standard set-up for all my kites . I definately feel more secure and controlled when getting lifted with a bar and static loop than handles and a strop.