Hi Memopad, with regards to the sluggish turns, is it possible that you are turning a little too soon and thus riding downwind as you steer your kite ? ..because that will slow the kite like nothing else. You might have to start turning the kite a fraction earlier before you actually start turning. Downturn also, let gravity assist you and maybe pull on the steering line above the bar to speed things up.

Quote: Originally posted by RedSky

Hi Memopad, with regards to the sluggish turns, is it possible that you are turning a little too soon and thus riding downwind as you steer your kite ? ..because that will slow the kite like nothing else. You might have to start turning the kite a fraction earlier before you actually start turning. Downturn also, let gravity assist you and maybe pull on the steering line above the bar to speed things up.

This is with me standing stationary, or moving slowly across or upwind. So far keeping momentum downwind has been a no-go I will try a downturn next time I'm out, I think i've only been trying to turn the kite up and over so far.

Unrelated to my terrible kite handling skills:

My Volkl P40's are awesome, have a razor sharp edge, and are pretty comfortable to use with the kite. However with the exposed ice and rough conditions I feel like I might be killing the bases, at least until we get more snow.

I picked up some 200cm Atomic Beta Race 9.20. I was going to use them yesterday but I had some binding issues, hopefully I solved them last night. These are a little longer than the Volkls, but a similar shape. Edge probably needs sharpened, but I don't care if I beat these skis up a little more.

The same guy I bought these two pairs from also has some Beta Race 9.34 198cm. He called them slalom skis (not GS) with quicker turning, but I thought the .34 was the turn radius, which makes it wider than the 9.20 (GS) skis. Anyone know anything about Atomics?

Quote: Originally posted by Memopad

Quote: Originally posted by RedSky   Hi Memopad, with regards to the sluggish turns, is it possible that you are turning a little too soon and thus riding downwind as you steer your kite ? ..because that will slow the kite like nothing else. You might have to start turning the kite a fraction earlier before you actually start turning. Downturn also, let gravity assist you and maybe pull on the steering line above the bar to speed things up. This is with me standing stationary, or moving slowly across or upwind. So far keeping momentum downwind has been a no-go I will try a downturn next time I'm out, I think i've only been trying to turn the kite up and over so far. Unrelated to my terrible kite handling skills: My Volkl P40's are awesome, have a razor sharp edge, and are pretty comfortable to use with the kite. However with the exposed ice and rough conditions I feel like I might be killing the bases, at least until we get more snow. I picked up some 200cm Atomic Beta Race 9.20. I was going to use them yesterday but I had some binding issues, hopefully I solved them last night. These are a little longer than the Volkls, but a similar shape. Edge probably needs sharpened, but I don't care if I beat these skis up a little more. The same guy I bought these two pairs from also has some Beta Race 9.34 198cm. He called them slalom skis (not GS) with quicker turning, but I thought the .34 was the turn radius, which makes it wider than the 9.20 (GS) skis. Anyone know anything about Atomics?

I took a quick look at some old material on the 9.20 versus 9.34 Atomics. While I didn't see actual radius figures what I did see confirms what you wrote, viz, that the 9.20 have a GS sidecut while the 9.34 has a SL sidecut. That would make the 9.34 more hooky than the 9.20. For snowkiting purposes I would think that makes the 9.34 a worse choice than the 9.20. If you can find it, for ice or other hard pack where you have to set a precise edge the less sidecut the better. Look for skis with DH (downhill) or SG (Super Giant Slalom) designations. Most SL racing skis have sidecut radius numbers in the low teens (11-15m), GS somewhere between 18-25 (ish) SG can be 28+ and DH can be 45+. The numbers I scribbled down here are very rough (and exceptions certainly exist) but they are close enough to hopefully give you a feel for what you could be looking for.

I took a very quick look on eBay and saw these:

DH race skis

Thanks Wind. The interesting thing is that according to Atomics naming system, those 9.34 SL skis have a 34m turning radius that would fit a SG ski. The 9.20's I have are 20m radius, and the other 9. series all follow the same radius in their names. Weird. Just looking at the 9.34's they look to have less cut (straighter sides) though they are quite a bit narrower over all. Interesting stuff. I may just buy them to play with them for the price :D

More time on kite and experience will go a long way when working the low end. In time you'll choose the optimal point of sail to maintain speed and line tension. Also you will anticipate the turns to maintain speed and momentum to keep apparent wind on your side. Many regard the access as the best thing since women in yoga pants for learning snow kite. although I don't think anything will trump that trend.

When winds are low for the size of kite I have up I find it will fly better with the trim strap nearly closed. Counter intuitive since that is referred to as depower.

Speed = Power. Flying the kite hard through the window on the front lines creates " apparent wind " in the kite. Pulling the bar in as it hits the edge to slow speed and speed turning.

If you are having to reach out and grab extra brake to turn you are certainly under powered. Still that is a great skill when trying to get something out of the 14 when it will barely fly.

Quote: Originally posted by Memopad

Thanks Wind. The interesting thing is that according to Atomics naming system, those 9.34 SL skis have a 34m turning radius that would fit a SG ski. The 9.20's I have are 20m radius, and the other 9. series all follow the same radius in their names. Weird. Just looking at the 9.34's they look to have less cut (straighter sides) though they are quite a bit narrower over all. Interesting stuff. I may just buy them to play with them for the price :D

Now I'm trying to figure this out. These skis are around 15+ years old and it can be hard to find stuff on the net about skis that old. I did find that the 9.34 has these dimensions: 92-61-79 mm. I'll certainly take your word on the nomenclature. I was just thrown by folks calling them "slalom" skis.

Quote: Originally posted by Windstruck

Quote: Originally posted by Memopad   Thanks Wind. The interesting thing is that according to Atomics naming system, those 9.34 SL skis have a 34m turning radius that would fit a SG ski. The 9.20's I have are 20m radius, and the other 9. series all follow the same radius in their names. Weird. Just looking at the 9.34's they look to have less cut (straighter sides) though they are quite a bit narrower over all. Interesting stuff. I may just buy them to play with them for the price :D Now I'm trying to figure this out. These skis are around 15+ years old and it can be hard to find stuff on the net about skis that old. I did find that the 9.34 has these dimensions: 92-61-79 mm. I'll certainly take your word on the nomenclature. I was just thrown by folks calling them "slalom" skis.

Yep I'm thrown too because the owner called them slalom skis as well. I can't find much of anything online about the 9.34's, but going by what i've read about the 9.18s, 9.20's and others like that, the .34 should mean 34m radius. Could be counter intuitive since these are oooold skis and right around the time when shaped skis were coming into play? Who knows :p

Looks like my "new" used Montana 8 14m is actually a Montana 7 14m... oh joy. Guess that means I overpaid, oh well.

And the learning continues!

Went out today, a lot more wind. I picked up a wind meter, and it was steady around 12mph, lulls of 10mph, and gusts into the mid/upper teens. I can now say (according to the wind meter anyway) that I wasn't flying in anything near 10mph up till now, I guess I was over estimating the wind speeds previously. I felt okay in 10mph, 15mph took some getting used to. Even with the depower all the way on the kite pulled hard even at zenith, took some adjusting of the harness to keep things comfy downstairs from the upward pull. I was kind of surprised how much lift the kite had parked at 12'oclock. I'd estimate 20-30lbs of upward force, I was expecting less The Access was very stable though, did exactly what I wanted and stayed where I put it, very reassuring.

In these winds the bar control was very obvious, it was reassuring to dump the bar in gusts and feel the kite stop pulling as hard. With depower all the way on and bar all the way out, I still had to keep the kite high to stay under control going downwind, otherwise I'd get moving way too fast for comfort. Part of that was the difficulty of transitioning from snow to large icy patches back to snow. My skis weren't happy.

The Volkl P40's had previously been fine for tracking in the lighter winds. In this heavier air as I was on my edge more and really powering down on the skis, they'd start to carve a turn up wind, made it difficult to control. In lighter deeper snow it might be okay, but this was extremely dense wind blown snow.

All in all a good experience and taste of higher wind speeds. In deeper snow I think I would've been enjoying it a lot more. On ice, still a fun outing but a little more hair raising than wanted :D Supposed to be light wind the rest of the week, should have a chance to get the Montana 14m out of the bag, maybe Thursday.

the lift , kinda "on your toes" feel, thats what you want! keep the kite high, control your speed with kite action and edge . give plenty of room for smooth steady turns. kinda focus toward speed control with kite position and "brake" control with edging. once you are moving EVERYTHING starts to grow , speed , power, lift, ...keep things smooth and steady , easy thru the top. 7/8 whatever, wouldn't be too concerned, be glad you a decent unit!

the static lift is termed "lit". which means kite is firing while not moving with SOLID tension thru harness. trim in and keep bar at comfortable level and should feel "power stroke " as you pull in , ideally once unit is tuned to conditions, with favoring more depowered trim, the power stroke zero point will be conincidence with bar all the way in thats the unhooked position.... might want to wait on that part.

anyway have fun trim about 50-75% in and should speed up turns and make unit more lively as wind hits the sweet spot, which sounds like where you where today with power.

keeping the kite high in the window is the baby steps for speed control. you don't need much and send "gently" the opposite to slow even more , smooth slow steady, too fast and unit will pop and lift you a bit ..pretty soon snapping the bar in at the zenith will be the pop trigger for boosting ...if thats what you want. otherwise slow smooth and steady.

Quote: Originally posted by PHREERIDER

the static lift is termed "lit". which means kite is firing while not moving with SOLID tension thru harness. trim in and keep bar at comfortable level and should feel "power stroke " as you pull in , ideally once unit is tuned to conditions, with favoring more depowered trim, the power stroke zero point will be conincidence with bar all the way in thats the unhooked position.... might want to wait on that part. anyway have fun trim about 50-75% in and should speed up turns and make unit more lively as wind hits the sweet spot, which sounds like where you where today with power. keeping the kite high in the window is the baby steps for speed control. you don't need much and send "gently" the opposite to slow even more , smooth slow steady, too fast and unit will pop and lift you a bit ..pretty soon snapping the bar in at the zenith will be the pop trigger for boosting ...if thats what you want. otherwise slow smooth and steady.

Yep today all of those kite control things became obvious, it was pretty cool. Glad to know everything was operating normally It took minimal bar input to do nice steady turns, definitely no yanking the brake lines today! I was being pretty chicken because of the ice, would've given it a little more if in snow.

With the wind the way it was, I couldn't do my normal landing of just stalling the kite down. I used the 5th line safety and pulled that in to bring the kite down. Once it was on the ground I was able to turn a tip into the wind and hold it down with snow, normal routine after that. It was kind of hard to pull the safety line in with my gloves on, lots of pressure on it so it was hard to grip. Is it okay to undo the chicken loop and let the kite flag all the way out that way? I don't want to make a giant knotted mess, but if there was any more wind today I think that would've been my next step.

it will reverse stall in more wind, just need practice, you need a plan! an ice anchor or some fixture (a sand/ice bag, bumper , dock, stump etc..) to secure lines then get to kite and secure it.

you can just unhook and allow to fall to safety, generally messy. get a plan stick to it. keep it simple and low hassle

make sure your apparel gear choice works BEFORE you really need it. gloves mitts whatever, choose comfort but include your safety action in choices you make.

Quote: Originally posted by PHREERIDER

it will reverse stall in more wind, just need practice, you need a plan! an ice anchor or some fixture (a sand/ice bag, bumper , dock, stump etc..) to secure lines then get to kite and secure it. you can just unhook and allow to fall to safety, generally messy. get a plan stick to it. keep it simple and low hassle make sure your apparel gear choice works BEFORE you really need it. gloves mitts whatever, choose comfort but include your safety action in choices you make.

Bah I have an ice screw that I didn't bring with me, could've used it!

stay consistent with setup and bag. esp bar wind and roll up.

anchor to launch as well. hot launch set up in light , side launch in heavy air. rev stall action is safety at will without flag release foul potential.

read all manufactures guide for product online.

always do same , everytime. consistent safe practice, its the first reflex. the wind meter will keep you honest.

the power stroke feedback rate, when moving the bar, is somewhat matched to balance and edge control. keep ur head back, eyes on horizon toward point of sail. basic reflexes like that help get ur handling balanced out for powerful edge control. definitely find the brakes!

and always have fun

Quote: Originally posted by PHREERIDER

stay consistent with setup and bag. esp bar wind and roll up. anchor to launch as well. hot launch set up in light , side launch in heavy air. rev stall action is safety at will without flag release foul potential. read all manufactures guide for product online. always do same , everytime. consistent safe practice, its the first reflex. the wind meter will keep you honest. the power stroke feedback rate, when moving the bar, is somewhat matched to balance and edge control. keep ur head back, eyes on horizon toward point of sail. basic reflexes like that help get ur handling balanced out for powerful edge control. definitely find the brakes! and always have fun

Great advice, thanks! I was hesitant to try the reverse stall because I'd be in the power zone if I screwed up and refilled the kite. Now that I think about it that really shouldn't be a big concern with the nice big brake handles to hold on to. I know what i'll be doing next time!

Got to fly the Montana 14m today! It was very light, around 3-7mph wind. When it's flying, the Montana is much easier to control in the light air than the Access, much better turn rate, and easier to generate power because of it. I was able to hit 17mph on the gps. When the wind dropped I kept tucking a wing tip when at the edge of the window, and then the kite would stall out. Had a handful of landings on the trailing edge, then had to ski upwind to get the kite back in the air. This was in very light wind :P I can't wait to try this kite in a little more wind, maybe up to 10mph to start. It feels like there is a LOT of control in the bar throw, and the depower trim is probably twice as long as the Access. Fun stuff!

Sounds as if things are coming together for you. Two things: first, the re-ride is petty forgiving if you pull the chicken loop. There is a red ball up the line that will arrest the bar before it travels too far and rat nests everything. Test this out a few times BEFORE you need it, then if the situation arise you know what to do, how to do it, and what will happen. I have found that pulling in the fifth line by hand is easier to do on my 6m Access than my 9m Frenzy or my 15m Summit. Sort of makes sense.

Second, I suspect you found it difficult to gain aggressive purchase with your edges on the ice when the kite was high in the air and you felt yourself getting lifted. Been there; sort of a weird and unnerving feeling. I'm new too.

You are now likely understanding why we've been suggesting getting skis with a much longer turning radius. Hooking upwind is a pain in the seatmeat.

Sounds as if you are having fun. Keep going for it!

Quote: Originally posted by Windstruck

Sounds as if things are coming together for you. Two things: first, the re-ride is petty forgiving if you pull the chicken loop. There is a red ball up the line that will arrest the bar before it travels too far and rat nests everything. Test this out a few times BEFORE you need it, then if the situation arise you know what to do, how to do it, and what will happen. I have found that pulling in the fifth line by hand is easier to do on my 6m Access than my 9m Frenzy or my 15m Summit. Sort of makes sense. Second, I suspect you found it difficult to gain aggressive purchase with your edges on the ice when the kite was high in the air and you felt yourself getting lifted. Been there; sort of a weird and unnerving feeling. I'm new too. You are now likely understanding why we've been suggesting getting skis with a much longer turning radius. Hooking upwind is a pain in the seatmeat. Sounds as if you are having fun. Keep going for it!

Having a blast! Absolutely on the skis... they're what I had available at the time, I'm still looking for older straight cut skis to bash around the lake on. I found some on craigslist that would be ideal but they're asking some crazy price like $150 bucks for something from the 90's Sorry lady those skis are worth $10. Lots on ebay but the shipping is well over the cost of the skis. Hopefully something local turns up soon.

Sounds like you're being as cautious as you should - perhaps starting in lighter winds than your kites would be ideal for. All the funny handling problems you describe are normal. The benefit is that if you make any mistakes, it doesn't cost as much. And the big bonus is that you are gaining experience handling the kite in the most difficult conditions. That skill will be useful even after hundreds of hours of flying time.

Once you become completely comfortable with having more power in the kite, the lift you can get from just flying static can be enough to pick you up off the ground when you pull in the bar. It sounds like you have had a kite up in stronger wind - just remember if you're going to use the brake to stall and land it - that you are better off completely committing to landing the kite. As you said, you don't want to have it fill back up halfway down to the ground and rocket back to the zenith. If it pulls harder you should pull even harder on the back lines (brake). It can be easier if you let it drag you downwind when you do this. Or at least that's how I land my 15m speed 3 in 25mph wind.

Good luck and stay safe.

Was able to get a good session in on the Montana 14m today. Winds were 7-10mph with some gusts to maybe 12-13 or so. Really fun kite, definitely wasn't pulling as hard as my previous Access session in the higher winds, so it wasn't fully powered up yet. I really like the depower on it, very reassuring. I brought the gopro out for some video, but managed to take some pictures of myself when I thought I was getting video... whoops.

I'm finding it easy to overfly myself overhead if I'm not paying attention, and the kite collapses. If I approach zenith slowly or apply the brakes first it doesn't happen, but if i let it go from the power zone and shoot up to 12'oclock it overflys every time. Is this pretty normal or a trim issue? Not a big deal just curious.

you can trim kite out(let depower trim out) but thats a drag..(phunny!) and slows kite down, but is handy when learning in DECENT wind. light wind is different with the small net power can be tedious and require lots of kite/rider action ...soo getting things moving is the real answer.

maybe this will help. you have to pay attention continuously, even more so in light #1 rule -->bar in, keep kite happy always add motion, you must learn to FEEL this out while looking at POS.

#2 rule --->stop standing around. you have gone to trouble to put the thing up---get moving. kite will be much happier and easier to work with dynamically on point of sail esp. in light.

back line tension by hand is a reflex you have to feel it out , without looking , the harness tension, and the bar feedback pressure to tell you whats going .

Short video of yesterdays session. My bar control goes out the window as soon as I'm holding a camera

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wRt2esrHkPM

Whoops double post...

Quote: Originally posted by Memopad

Short video of yesterdays session. My bar control goes out the window as soon as I'm holding a camera https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wRt2esrHkPM

Nice little vid memo! Glad to see you out getting your Snowkite jive on. Indian Lake looks impressive! What a wide open expanse. Once you gain more experience and confidence I bet you could really get lit on a surface like that!

Quote: Originally posted by Windstruck

Nice little vid memo! Glad to see you out getting your Snowkite jive on. Indian Lake looks impressive! What a wide open expanse. Once you gain more experience and confidence I bet you could really get lit on a surface like that!

Thanks! The lake is about 5x7miles, really fun playground. I got 27mph on gps on the opposite tack to the video and that felt good, I think 30's would still be okay. Much more than that I think would be too uncomfortable on these skis, just not stable enough in these conditions.

Quote: Originally posted by Memopad

Quote: Originally posted by Windstruck   Nice little vid memo! Glad to see you out getting your Snowkite jive on. Indian Lake looks impressive! What a wide open expanse. Once you gain more experience and confidence I bet you could really get lit on a surface like that! Thanks! The lake is about 5x7miles, really fun playground. I got 27mph on gps on the opposite tack to the video and that felt good, I think 30's would still be okay. Much more than that I think would be too uncomfortable on these skis, just not stable enough in these conditions.

I know exactly what you mean. Take a look online at the DH skis in my quver. I got them on eBay cheap

It was blowing 25 gusting to 35mph today so naturally I took a kite out. It was a 3m sensei trainer kite and I was hoping to at least be able to move on some skis with it... It was far too gusty to fly the kite lol. It would keep collapsing and hour glassing itself, but was fun to fly the kite for a little bit anyway. It was moving at warp speed for sure. Managed to hook into a huge gust and have the bar ripped out of my hands (I was holding on pretty damn tight too). Naturally didn't have any kind of attachment to my body, so I had to run across the lake chasing it down. At least it didn't make it too far before I caught up to it, bad news was that it broke one of the control lines, impressive.

It's been in the 40's and 50's all week and poured rain earlier today, so there was a couple of inches of water on top of the ice on the lake. Decided to try out the "new" 5m kite anyway... I didn't really expect the kite to fill up with water so quickly, they don't get off the ground with 20lbs of water in there haha. I set an ice screw in to anchor the bar, and was able to open the trailing edge vents to let the water out of the kite, probably got 10 gallons in there :p I kind of figured the velcro would close itself in the air, and the kite wanted to fly so i ran back to the bar and got it in the air before it sank in the water again. It flew okay, but it was losing pressure in the wing tips because the vents were stuck open, oh well. Still managed a short ski session with water flying everywhere. I've got the kite sprawled out in my living room drying out now. With two people (one to hold the kite up for launching) it would've been a great session. I may have been able to close the vents and get the kite up, but at the time I thought it wouldn't be as big of an issue as it turned out to be. Fun to fly a more smaller more responsive kite though!

Also this Apex 3 has a strap on the depower trim, kind of funky I'll have to play around with it to see how it works. I also noticed the bar pinching my skin a bit, haven't felt that on the other bars yet.