Oh, and I forgot to Say. Scott/Speleo.

I totally agree with you on the water part. When the kite lands in the water, it doesn't power down. It just turns a 1.5m fast profoil into a humongous SLOW 20 million meter flexifoil blade. Taking a kite out of water is a beast, and with kite killers attached an waves rolling, you def aren't safe in the surf!

Is that photo from a water or land accident? from the name assuming water.

Kite Killlers (SAFETY LEASH)...iF you have to release the handles in an EMERGENCY the kite will stall, and stay connected to you.

keep the kite from flying away from it's flyer, keeping the public safe.
kite killers, when engaged, automatically depower and land the kite.

I don't think racers use KK, might be a good idea though, for safety! No kites sliding accross the field. No lines to get tangles into!

I only use these for land kiting, there are other water safety systems. KK work awesome with the buggy students. Most customers are concerned if they don't have them.

The sport is growing like crazy, new spots are accessible because the new ozone/flexi/pl/pkd/all other "NEW" brands work much better than the "old" stuff I learned on. Even my yakuza fully stalls and lands if I let go. I can quickly release, becuase I've practiced with our students.

I feel better knowing other riders in our fields use them too!

Quote:

Originally posted by tedsfoils The flyers who are using the KS-P-A-M-L-I-N-K-s may not have ever dumped the kite and have the wind pick up... since you are still attached to the kite by both wrists the kite could still pull you downwind... and while this is going on you have no control.

in my experiences if the killers are set up correctly (brakes are the right length) then the kite is transformed into a useless ball off ripstop which is unable to become powered up again.

i have ditched my kite on killers in winds of 25mph gusting to 35 and not experienced the kite becoming anywhere near powered once 'killed'.

I agree with Corey in some ways, Teaching control is first and formost. If you learn to properly use the brakes there's often no need to go to kite killers. Quite often you're safer hitting the brakes, settling down, then letting off the brakes and carrying on than to drop the kite, drag it over who knows what, possibly wrap it around the rear axle. But this is assuming that you have some idea of control and are in a safe open area.

Sadly most guys go out, buy a kite and think they're king of the world. Seen it enough times. I was one of those guys years ago. I used KS-P-A-M-L-I-N-K-s back then and avoided injuring anyone around me all those times I lost it. Most noobies like the power, go out looking for more and more power, It's not a bad thing, but eventually they learn what too much power is. Then a while later they learn what well powered is. This is the main reason I'm for KS-P-A-M-L-I-N-K-s.

Having said that, I'm not using them now, I always fly a fully captive system, That means that the kite can not come free of my harness under any conditions unless I pull the quick release. The kite stays hooked in by it's power lines to my harness. So the only way the kite will ever be killed is if I apply the brakes. Most cases I have no problem using something similar to Corey's method for dropping the kite when needed, even after the nasty OBE's. I don't use any sort of KS-P-A-M-L-I-N-K-s with this setup, it just complicates things and offers no real benefit. The couple times I've had to cut the kite loose over the last couple years I'd taken a pretty good hit and didn't want anything to do with the kite on kS-P-A-M-L-I-N-K-s or not, so it went it's own way to be picked up later.

Yeah, the finger injury was in the water-waist deep or so. Kite canopy was over land. The kite was basicly on the killers with very sharp taunt brake lines. The kite was flapping wildly about and the finger got in the way. Very very bad injury-a lot worse than it looks.

Just make sure not to fly with objects and people downwind of you and you'll be fine with no kite killers. If your racing then all bets are off 'cause racing is racing and everyone knows the dangers.

Just remember that no matter what you fly as long as your not overpowered and having fun it's all good!

Scott

Had a nasty OBE this moriing in light but gusty, snatchy winds on the beach (west wind flowing over the island, out to sea). Started off with my PL Reactor 8.3m which I could launch in a puff and then keep going in apparent wind. The winds built quickly and gave me a good launch, flipped the bug and landed me on the hard-pack and shattered my bike helmet.

Had it not been for my kite killers, my Reactor would have been drifting west in the Atlantic. Yes I could have arrested the kite with the grab and pull method (I do wear gloves), but with the shock of hitting the beach so hard, there was a better than 50-50 chance I would have dropped it. With the kite killers deployed, the kite flagged but stayed in the air long enough for me to get to my feet and get it off the water for a dry landing.

Besides testing and demos, this was the first time I have deployed kite killers for real. I will keep them, thanks.

After this weekend, yep I"ll be using KS-P-A-M-L-I-N-K-s. Put up a new 3.5m in gusty high teens-low 20's. Felt really good high up - dropped into the window, and had a great scud of about 25 ft. Took her high, dropped back in as a gust hit. Very nice superman (I'm told my form was great), followed by about a 50 ft slide down the beach. Finally landed the bugger. Had I been using KS-P-A-M-L-I-N-K-s, could've avoided all of that. Of course, it also would have deprived my wife and others from their weekly entertainment!!

Bottom line - I'll definately be using KS-P-A-M-L-I-N-K-s, especially with a new kite!

I use kitekillers when I'm on handles and no harness, and a QR safety shackle and additional safety leash w/ QR pin release when I'm on a bar or on handles "fully captive."

Although I agree with Corey you need to emphasize kite control, I've had a couple of instances in the gusty inland Minnesota winds where I've been yanked over, smacked an elbow, hit a funny bone and let go of a handle. The kite killer made sure I wasn't running after a tangled up mess. And I definitely count myself as one to pick my kite conservatively for the conditions.

krumly

One note on captive setups, there's nothing quite like surviving a fairly bad OBE, thinking thank God I'm in one piece, then having the kite power up again and going for round two. Fully captive means you always have to be on the kite. When it all goes bad you've still got to either cut the kite loose or use Corey's method.

Side note, if someone goes down hard around you, the standard rule is always go secure the kite before running over to the person for the same reason, Just throw weight on it or ball it up under your arm and throw it under a buggy wheel or something, chances are they'll be thankful for the help when they catch their breath. You can't help them if they're still stuck to something that can power up again.

I only have 1 set of KS-P-A-M-L-I-N-K-s but use them on all my kites, switch Kites, switch over KS-P-A-M-L-I-N-K-s to the nexy kite NP, (peice of mind)... Kudos' to KS-P-A-M-L-I-N-K-s

I guess everybody who has something to say on this topic has had their say. I started this topic to see if there was good science behind kite killers or if they are like ski run-away straps of old that seemed like a good idea at the time.
I would like to sum what I saw from this discussion.

Many people said they were a safety feature for the pilot. The only examples provided were that the kite was safer not the pilot. No one provided an instance where the pilot was safer with killers than without. Some writers provided examples as to why the pilot was safer with out KKs. Some writers suggested that it allowed them to have confidence with a larger kite. This equipment courage is frequently used as an argument used against bike helmets.


Most felt that kite killers would reduce "struck by" accidents involving handles. A number writers questioned whether this was the accident of greatest severity, suggesting that abrasion injuries may have a greater risk of occurring and a higher severity. Other writers pointed out that the high speed portion or handle release without KK/s is relatively short lived and that once this energy dissipated, the kite and handles are unlike to cause injury.

Pilots who have been flying for a while are less likely to have faith in KKs than newbies. With apologies to Baluk who asked "Who thinks KK are unsafe?"; the answer is a few people who have been buggying longer that you have been out of short pants.

No kite manufacturer or designers put in their opinions, although several North American distributors did. Was this chance or not wanting to voice an opinion that could be used against them in court. Amongst the distributors the opinion was mixed.

One writer wrote that "every kite needs a safety system, no matter how lame".
Thank you all for the input. I am going to take this topic to racekites and get the UK perspective.

Regards
S

Hey Scudley,
How do YOU stand on KS-P-A-M-L-I-N-K-s :?: As I remember you stood by them back in the day. I haven't paid attention to if you are using them now you've gone buggy ? Personally I think they are a pain in the :moon: but think we may have to include them at G.P. in the future. I know I feel less safe when strapped to them. Somehow I see my kite hitting someone a lot harder if it's stuck to me and pulling powered kiteloops than realeased and losing air .

I'm not the king of the air but when it hits the fan and you are jumping so you have to bail in the air, wouldn't it complicate things when you let go and the brakes hit ?

How about buggy racing in Europe ? I'm pretty sure they aren't used.

Do the clubs in G.B and Europe require them ?

Please let us know what you get out of Racekites forum !!

Quote:

Originally posted by snowbird Hey Scudley, How do YOU stand on KS-P-A-M-L-I-N-K-s :?: As I remember you stood by them back in the day. I haven't paid attention to if you are using them now you've gone buggy ? Personally I think they are a pain in the :moon: but think we may have to include them at G.P. in the future.

The possibility of having to use them at GP is why I started the discussion. I wanted to see if there was any real reason to think they work and whether we should put a rule in place.
I think the power kiting community (users and manufacturers) needs to examine in a scientific manner whether they are beneficial and in what circumstances. There seems to be a lot of confusion amongst pilots as to their possible benefits.

As to racekites most of the responders seem to be of recent vintage and very pro killers. Many seem to think that kite recovery is a safety feature for pilots. Most do not see that they could ever be a hazard.

S
I am still waiting for winds to test my strop QR

S

Flip a coin, read your daily horoscope and dont even go with the short pants comments. Im fifty, fit, and tired of your arrogant post. Grow a set and make a decision!

Quote:

Originally posted by tridude Flip a coin, read your daily horoscope and dont even go with the short pants comments. Im fifty, fit, and tired of your arrogant post. Grow a set and make a decision!

I do not think that I will flip a coin or read my horoscope. I think I consider as much information as possible so I make as informed a decision as possible. This may sound like a very novel idea to you, who apparently is suggesting I use my testicles to make intellectual decision.
The comment about short pants was actually the response to Baluk from the person who put the bee in my ear about kite killers. He sort of resented having his opinion on a point about power kiting, which he has been doing almost longer than Baluk has been breathing, being dismissed as stupid by someone with only a years experience. His comment had more to do with the content of BaluS-P-A-M-L-I-N-K-s pants when he started kiting than their length. I changed it for family content.
You are right I should have been more polite and reminded everyone as we used to at the PI team meetings, there are no stupid questions, only stupid answers.

I hope you can find topics more to your liking in the near future.

S

Quote:

Originally posted by snowbird I know I feel less safe when strapped to them. Somehow I see my kite hitting someone a lot harder if it's stuck to me and pulling powered kiteloops than realeased and losing air . I'm not the king of the air but when it hits the fan and you are jumping so you have to bail in the air, wouldn't it complicate things when you let go and the brakes hit ?

I've never had any of my kites pulling and doing powered kite loops while on the KKs. If you have them attached properly as Angus said before, you have full brakes and the length of your brake leader braking the kite. If my kite is leaning on the KKs, it is just ruffling on the ground at best. I would have to pull the handles back to even get the cells to fill, and then it just sits there like its on a stake. I find the KKs reassuring when flying in gusty inland wind. You can be having a great time and suddenly the wind doubles for 4-5 seconds. You go from happy to fearing for your life in a second. I don't want to stay home because a gust might come up. I don't fly with people close downwind or under my lines, so if all else fails, I like to know I have a surefire escape plan with (to date) no negatives whatsoever.

If you are jumping, and get too high, letting go of the handles would be a bad idea. At that point you NEED the kite to get back down unless falling is better than where you are headed. In that case you weren't using good judgment to start with. I wouldn't scoff at someone else for not using KKs but I won't launch without them unless the kite I have up and the present conditions are such that I am very confident I can handle anything coming along. For instance, I don't have them for my Profoil 1.5. It can be snatchy in high gusty winds, but it is so responsive to the brakes that I can get myself back in shape almost instantly with the brakes. Any kite of mine from the beamer and larger always have KKs on unless I'm struggling to keep it in the air to start with.

This is one of those subjects that hardly anyone is going to be swayed from their opinion but it is always good to hear what someone else thinks. It just might open your eyes to another point of view you haven't considered. These are just my opinions and observations, and I am grateful to have access to all of yours.

I second that.

Quote:

Originally posted by BeamerBob I've never had any of my kites pulling and doing powered kite loops while on the KKs. If you have them attached properly as Angus said before, you have full brakes and the length of your brake leader braking the kite. If my kite is leaning on the KKs, it is just ruffling on the ground at best. I would have to pull the handles back to even get the cells to fill, and then it just sits there like its on a stake. I find the KKs reassuring when flying in gusty inland wind. You can be having a great time and suddenly the wind doubles for 4-5 seconds. You go from happy to fearing for your life in a second. I don't want to stay home because a gust might come up. I don't fly with people close downwind or under my lines, so if all else fails, I like to know I have a surefire escape plan with (to date) no negatives whatsoever. If you are jumping, and get too high, letting go of the handles would be a bad idea. At that point you NEED the kite to get back down unless falling is better than where you are headed. Ken's REPLY........ Making sure that you have at least double the distance of your lines downwind is a very good choice. I have NEVER let my fixed bridle loose and have it fly that distance. My Closed cell is a different story and a different safety. If you let go of your kite but it gets caught in you spreader or wrapped around your handle the powered kiteloop scenario is very real ! I don't know about you but I have felt some VERY strong hits when I let go and the brakes come on in big wind. I haven't experienced this bailing from a jump but have bailed on my Bullets many times. They have a rep. for chucking you downwind and slamming you. Removing myself from the kite has felt right under that situation. If a gust hits and you have descent flying skills you would put on the brakes manually or at least I do ! Always size your kite for the gusts then you won't be so afraid to go out! Clearing myself from the kite if I can't bring it down safely ( fixed bridle on handles ) has been my surefire escape plan that also ( to date ) has had no negative outcome. That said. We are likely to have to introduce kite killers locally due to the Parks Board actively working with us + the limited space . I can and will use them if I have to I'll still leave them in the bag when I buggy on the bay ! The important thing is BE SAFE however you feel that is !! Oh.... and have fun !!! Don't be too hard on Scudley. He means well !

I agree completely about keeping open space downwind of your kite, and I might not be completely comfortable with only double the line length.

I'm not sure yet about harnesses and spreader bars, but didn't think they went along with Kite Killers. I usually fly static and rarely get a chance to ride a buggy. In the buggy I use the same handles and kite killers I do flying static, so I'll have to defer comment about kite killers getting caught in a spreader bar. However, every time I've used the kite killers to demonstrate them to someone else, the kite just flutters down to the ground. Mine are the new HW style and connected to the brake leaders with bungee cord so maybe that is absorbing the shock you feel.

I agree about applying your brakes first if you are in trouble. I've only turned the handles loose to save myself twice. Once in a buggy and once when I was horizontal about 6 feet high. Second kite flight in WAY more wind than I had business flying in. Now I know. Even with my newfound understanding of a kites power, I still use the KKs unless I'm just barely keeping the kite in the air.