Quote:

Originally posted by Bladerunner One of my major problems with killers is that they are constantly in the way. That or I have looped the kiteand want to flip back but must loop or live with twisted killers. I think my main motivator in not using them is avoiding the agro. Am I the only one who finds them a proper pain in the :moon:

other than simply putting them on/off at the start of session I can't recall why they are a PIA.
Yes,
if i "manage" to "land" the kite in a manner that i can not simply relaunch without walking to kite in order to re-set (walk of shame?) than yes, another dawning and doffing of the KKs is required.
If one is a decent flyer, flying proper kite size in proper condition, one would very rarely ever find him/herself doing the "walk of shame".
So why are KKs a PIA?
Paul

Quote:

Originally posted by Scudley Quote: Originally posted by Drewculous i was actually comparing this discussion to seatbelts in my head over lunch... lol Rather than seat belts in a car I think the analogy is more like tying your wrists to the handlebars of your motorcycle. :wee: Do think this would be a good safety feature? S

a girlfriend of mine explained to me why she went to physio- therapy so often.
(when she was a child) she was in the back of a car which was rear ended hard enough to force the seat to break away from it's mounts. had she been wearing her seat belt she would have likely been killed. the lap belt would have nearly cut her in half as the seat was driven forward.
knowing this i do not advocate to people not to use seat belts. i'd bet if there were not law$ against it many people would choose not to wear them, especially old timers. i'd also bet that many choose not to wear seatbelts contrary to law$.

the motorcycle analogy is just silly.
no KKs i know of are breakproof tethers. KKs break away. I had one break away from me as I stumbled getting into my buggy and the kite looped around hard. I seen one breakaway as it wrapped around buggy axle.

And much like seatbelts, one can argue their points forever, but is unlikely to manage to convince everybody. :dunno:

I don't ever wear a helmet.

Quote:

Originally posted by revpaul the motorcycle analogy is just silly.

Why? You are strapped to something powerful by your wrists. Kite killers do not restrain you in structure that is engineered to protect its occupants as are seat belts, (so the analogy to seat belts is also silly). They merely secure you to a something that has a great deal of kinetic energy that is going to be dissipated by you body. I think the motorcycle analogy is far more apt than seat belts in a car.
A great deal of thought goes into the design of a car body and the passenger restraint system. Years of statistical evidence was available to prove seat belt efficacy. If you can find any evidence that the same went into kite killers, let us all know.

S

You should wear kks in wind that you are not fully sure that you can keep hold of the kite FACT

On land i fail to see the cons that kks bring.

In a chilled or apparent wind then you dont need them but they are your friend.

If your kite is let go without kks fook kno.. this shizzle aint even worth justyfying, the FACT is.. all noobs must where kks

Quote:

Originally posted by Scudley Anybody notice that depowers have two releases: one to release the powerlines; one to jettison the kite? I wonder why they do that. For all of you who swear by kite killers, may your change of mind not include hurting someone else. Good luck. S P.S. Kitejumper the Reflex is not designed for the use of killers: they may work, they may not.

thank you for that info,i'll xperiment and find something that suits my style

Quote:

Originally posted by paulcoleman I feel as an impartial beginner I should inject some views here. I can see both sides of the argument, and power kiting is dangerous with or without KS-P-A-M-L-I-N-K-s if done improperly/stupidly. I'm reading this thread as a beginner looking for advice, but all I'm getting from it is there are a group who use them and think its dangerous not to, and a group who don't use them and think its dangerous to use them. Both parties seem to be bordering on the classic arrogance of "I'm right, your wrong, so shut it!". I've seen many arguments, on many forums, or differing subjects (photography, cars etc) end like this, and its less than helpful for those looking for info. Everyone will have different opinions, but nobody is right or wrong. With regards to KS-P-A-M-L-I-N-K-s, I can see the dangers they may cause, and the dangers they may prevent. So, based on what I've read here's what I intend to do when I pick up my first 4-line foil (most likely the rage 3.5). The field I have found 10 minutes away from my home is very open in the middle of a valley with very clean wind. It has a public right of way along side the low speed local railway lines across the top it. So far on every trip there wind has been blowing away from the path/railway eliminating that as a danger, the only thing down wind are fences mores fields and some trees here and there. So with the only real danger being me losing/damaging my first kite I will wear KS-P-A-M-L-I-N-K-s for peace of mind until I have a bit of experience and confidence flying the kite. If I travel to any other location before my confidence and control skills are up I will have to evaluate the situation and make a sensible decision on whether they should be used, or if I should even fly, depending on the factors at the time. I will then, in time, make my own decision on whether to use them or not. I will also advise other newbies the same, if you can find a location like the one above where the only danger is losing the kite, then use common sense with the wind speed and KS-P-A-M-L-I-N-K-s to stop the kite getting away. At a cost around £12-15 for a pair, I think any newbie with a big-ish kite should pick a pair up and use them (in the right situation) and make up their own mind on them, then bang them on eBay if they don't like them! Just my 2p worth, as a viewing newbie. Common sense is the biggest safety feature any kiter can have, anything else is additional. The next biggest thing a newbie can have is sensible and impartial advice from experienced kiters. So how about for the noobs like me, instead of another argument we simply compile a list of possible ups and downs of using KS-P-A-M-L-I-N-K-s in different locations/situations. How about we start with these: When buggying on a beach with several other buggyers KS-P-A-M-L-I-N-K-s can be very dangerous. When static flying in an open field with no others around you KS-P-A-M-L-I-N-K-s will most likely stop your kite blowing away if you loose your grip. Rant over, hope you are still reading Paul

interesting points you make--my view on kks is--ive had them work well for me and thats just great--everyone has their own preferences--as you can see--there are many ways to fly power kites--who cares what methods you use as long as your flying safe and having fun--i guess there are always going to be a few purists out there that feel things must be done a certain way

Quote:

Originally posted by Scudley Quote: Originally posted by revpaul the motorcycle analogy is just silly. Why? You are strapped to something powerful by your wrists. Kite killers do not restrain you in structure that is engineered to protect its occupants as are seat belts, (so the analogy to seat belts is also silly). They merely secure you to a something that has a great deal of kinetic energy that is going to be dissipated by you body. I think the motorcycle analogy is far more apt than seat belts in a car. A great deal of thought goes into the design of a car body and the passenger restraint system. Years of statistical evidence was available to prove seat belt efficacy. If you can find any evidence that the same went into kite killers, let us all know. S

They're BOTH silly analogies ...

Seat belts in cars function to arrest your movement within the vehicle in the event of a crash, to prevent Newton's First Law from making you a smear on the windshield or a gear-stick kebab or otherwise biting you in the arse AND keeping you within the protective shell of the cabin.

Anecdotal evidence of "If he/she was wearing a seatbelt, they'd have been killed" are right up there with such fantasies as "If I win the Lotto, I'll buy a Ferrari" - he/she isn't dead so you can't test that claim one way or the other.
99.9% of the time, the seat belts function to save lives and NOT wearing a seatbelt would result in death. Simple.

Being strapped to a motorcycle is just retarded!
Notice how when racers bail, they slide gently across the tarmac and are usually standing up watching as the bike canons down the track into the wall, over the fence and just keeps on going?

I'm sure if the science guys chime in and pick up on the 'kinetic energy' argument, that'd get mashed too - I'd guess that the kE of the kite and rider (or bike and rider) can be considered as separate systems.

As for the KK themselves - what is their function? To flag the kite by taking power out of the power lines, destroying the kites ability to produce power by altering it's profile.
Apples and oranges to the actual mechanics of seat belts and bikes.

Comparing the devices as functions for safety though ... perhaps the seatbelt analogy has merit.

Occasions I could see as being dangerous to be attached to a de-powered kite is when it gets hooked in something else ie. an external source of motivation - passing boat, plane, car etc or is heading for power lines. With due care by the kiter those could be reduced to as close to nil as to be disregarded in reality.

However, the kite getting yanked out of your hands and causing trouble downwind - much higher likelihood.
Next time you're riding, look downwind and imagine what would happen if your kite got lose. Then imagine what would happen if you dumped to KKs and it flagged to the ground.

... if you're anti-KKs, do you fly SLE/LEI without a leash?

Do you fly SLE or LEI with a leash that does not have an emergency release?
S

Yes but the leash is secured to my harness way more securely than a silly wrist wrap :karate:
And the KKs are PRIMARILY performing the same function as the safety release, not the leash itself.

How many times have you needed to release your leash to complete detach yourself from the kite?

Quote:

Originally posted by Scudley Quote: Originally posted by revpaul the motorcycle analogy is just silly. Why? You are strapped to something powerful by your wrists. Kite killers do not restrain you in structure that is engineered to protect its occupants as are seat belts, (so the analogy to seat belts is also silly). They merely secure you to a something that has a great deal of kinetic energy that is going to be dissipated by you body. I think the motorcycle analogy is far more apt than seat belts in a car. A great deal of thought goes into the design of a car body and the passenger restraint system. Years of statistical evidence was available to prove seat belt efficacy. If you can find any evidence that the same went into kite killers, let us all know. S

you know of any KKs that are as strong as seatbelts?
so you're 'for' seatbelts?
"A great deal of thought goes into the design of a car body and the passenger restraint system. Years of statistical evidence was available to prove seat belt efficacy. "

i already stated that KKs are not seatbelts. i already agreed to your point that KKs save kites not lives. seatbelts save lives not kites.

funny/strange that so many people procrastinate/refuse to wear seat belts simply because they should or have to (law$).
motorcycle analogy is silly...
you wouldn't really have me believe that a kite, once free of pilot and under the affective contol of KKs, has the same energy of a 400-1000 lb motorcycle that one has just jumped/fell/exited off of? no way dude!
*i am a very good rider of both on/off road motorcycles. I wouldn't be bothered by a set of KKs to bars. It wouldn't be dangerous/helpful/added fun (to me or any other "good" rider). It would simply be a waste of time so I call it silly.
*I would not tether a beginner rider to his/her on/off road motorcycle handlebars. That would be dangerous to do and I call it silly.

i'm sure I do 'not' know more about the making of kites and kite accessories than those who make. so why then do kite makers make KKs if KKs are not nessessary and downright dangerous?
you should really be campaigning against KKs to the kite makers and not me and those who use them.
as i have said I can, and sometimes do, get by without KKs.
it is nice to be free of KKs on those occaisions but i still feel as though i left the house with no pants on when i launch one without a set.
I have seen untethered kites drift far and wide and i have had no negative experiences with KKs therefor I am 'for' KKs. Also, and more importantly, to me, my kites are often used by folks with little/less/no experience. So I like to have KKs on most of the kites to save time playing the "find a set of KKs" game and save me from wearing/running over/repairing an untethered kite. i also choose to lead by example and prefer to not be a "do as i say not as i do" type.
________________________________________________
there is group of people who use KKs and a group that doesn't. both have thier reasons. it is up to the OP to decide which group he/she more closely fits and go from there.
Paul

Plus one more save for KKs ...

Last night after work, when for a bit of a tutu ... not enough wind to keep the kitewing moving (I was trying out riding toeside for the first time and I can control the 'wing easier) so I went for the 4.5 Bullet.
Wind gets real gusty in my little area, especially when it's driven by the passing pressure system - I could see the swirling clouds to the north. Good constant drive though, predictable once you got moving.
Trying to land the kite to stake it and take a break though - bugger wouldn't go down nicely. Kept collapsing halfway down then powering up again. A gust caught me off balance and pulled me forwards ...

If I'd hung on to the kite, it would have pulled me over face first. Yes I was wearing pads and even a helmet :D but it would have hurt and would have been undignified, and you can't control a kite with your nose in the dirt. And if I'd let go, it probably would have blown down the park, up the stop-bank, across the road into the power lines ... maybe

I let go the handles before I totally over-balanced and left the kite to the KKs. Kite dropped to the ground, I recovered my balance then picked the handles up. The kite was only another 3m downwind of where I let go, leashed to me but totally de-powered and under control ... sorta when I recovered the handles, the Bullet had bowtied through one set of lines so it was a total mess. I parked it, untangled the lines and kept riding

Would have been a different story if I had just released the kite without KKs ...