Quote:

Originally posted by powerzone well after reading thru all this i think you guys have convinced me..... I've been duped.... all my experiences must be false and flying these air matresses has made me crazy and too blind to see the truth. thats it, i'm gonna sell all my foils, quit the business, convert myself to all Blimp kites and join the crowd of negativity. i can't wait ! thanks for helping me see the light ! lol.

No need for BIG changes !
Just move over to the " ARC Side " of your product line ! :wee:

But I would keep my SA for low winds ! Today was a bummer. Not enough wind for the 15m Syn but enough to tease me.:megan:

um...

I thought I challenged your statement pretty good...

what i didn't do was say foils are better. Because that is a personal preference and cannot be generalized or made factual like your original statement was claiming.

funny thing about facts.....it is nearly impossible to prove something. More often then not, one can only hope to disprove what has already been done. If he/she does indeed disprove something it is nearly impossible again for that correlation based on a repeatable experiment to develop into a proven fact.

Sorry my engineering background has made me a bit of a wishy washy non-committal douche when it comes to people making claims

Can you tell I hate statistics?....They are responsible for things like the global warming myth, kites causing plovers to go extinct, drugs on TV that claim to "enhance" certain areas of the body, etc. etc.

If any of you have time to loose, you are welcome to read this, but only if you have nothing else to do, and there is no wind outside.

This is the traditional post PMU (Pump Me Up) sends to another popular kitesurf forum whenever the same debate occurs.

Quote:

Inflatables are vastly superior to ram airs. I've summarised the reasons for the superiority of inflatables: 1: Lift to drag ration (L/D) - Rams have a HUGE drag ("D") coefficient compared to inflatables, making them more inefficient. This is reflected in their poorer jumping ability and inability to fly as close to the window's edge as inflatables. Large rams can pull steadily enough, but will ALWAYS lack the jumping ability of a large, quality inflatables. 2: Inertia - Because large ram airs contain a much larger mass of air compared to inflatables (within their pockets), their inertia is HUGE. It is very difficult to move this mass of air across the sky to generate sudden power spikes and therefore lift. Apart from poor jumping, the inertia and slow turning makes kiteloops unnecessarily difficult. Large ram air kites contain OVER 11kg of air in their cells vs 2-3 kg for inflatables. 3: Rigidity & Stability - Semi-rigidity improves consistency, stability, turning, and precision in handling. It also enables these kites to withstand gusty conditions. Kite makers are always looking for ways to make kites more internally rigid, eg by joining the struts firmly to the leading edge, adding fifth lines, and bridles. - For stability problems in ram airs stemming from lack of internal rigidity, see: http://www.foilzone.com/phpBB2/viewtopi ... sc&start=0 4: Turning - Far from being a hindrance, the tips of inflatable act as rudders, enabling faster, more controlled turns (and therefore larger more controlled power spikes) - Rigidity facilitates turning. Bar input TWISTS the WHOLE kite, causing a rudder effect at the wing tips to accelerate turns. Lack of internal rigidity means that rams can't twist as aerodynamically as inflatos, meaning their turning and feedback is sloppier and less precise. 5: Foil shape - Inflatables have a consistent foil shape because they are semi rigid. Rams deform and change their foil shape which causes an inconsistent aerodynamic profile. 6: Luff curve - Luff curves vary extensively. Inflatables with flat luff curves sit forward in the window whereas inflatables with deeper luff curves sit further back in the window. It is the same principle as sailing: If you want more "bottom" end with a sail, you deepen the luff curve (eg letting out the outhaul on a sailboard). If you want more "high" end, you make the luff curve shallower (eg sheeting in the outhaul on a sailboard). There is a lot of difference amongst luff curves on kites; this determines a lot of handling differences. It's a matter of trying different inflatables until you find one you like. - The excessive drag and inertia of ram airs causes them to sit further back in the window compared to inflatables. Hence, there is less scope for ram designers to modify the luff curve. - Because of the semi-rigid structure inherent to inflatables the luff curve is much easier to standardise and maintain. Semi rigidity actually enables variables like the luff curve to be really optimised. Ram airs don't have this capacity. 7: Relaunch - Ram lovers make a big issue of this. It isn't a big issue. Beginners find relaunching inflatables easy after a few sesssions. Yes, some rams can reverse launch, but so what... a lot of inflatables can reverse launch. Rams can launch directly downwind in the water, but so what... so can a lot of inflatables. Anyway, downwind launches are dangerous for beginners because of the risk of being flung or carted downwind. For intermediates and above, relaunching should not even be considered in the equation because a) they won't be dropping the kite much anyway and b) Relaunching inflatables is EASY. Commonly, ram airs will not relaunch properly because of twisting, bridle tangles, or waterlogging. These aren't such big problems with inflatables. 8: Safety Inflatables are safer than ram airs because: a) Downwind launches are bloody SCARY for a beginner b) Because they lack internal rigidity, rams deform, twist, wineglass, and jellfish in the middle of the power zone etc when they are downwind of obstacles, in rotors, and in VERY gusty conditions. This is VERY dangerous. Some of the most frightening kitemares seen have involved ram users walking along beaches in cross-offshore conditions - their kites have been virtually uncontrollable and have endangered both the rider and other beach users. c) Wind dropouts and gear failure --Everyone invariably experience a few gear failures (eg broken lines) and COMPLETE wind dropouts every year. If you are a fair way offshore, you can use the inflatable as a "sail" to get back in. Alternatively you can just use the inflatable structure to support your weight. --All ram airs become hopelessly waterlogged after 45 minutes - unlaunchable and certainly unable to support your body weight. viewtopic.php?f=1&t=2346569 d) Surf conditions -- While it is always a gamble if your kite gets caught by a wave, at least you've got a fighting chance if it is an inflatable. If it is a ram air, it's all over. e) Bridle tangles and failures -- These occur surprisingly frequently. They can be expensive (US $500 plus) (eg see the thread titled "Flysurfer Warrior Exploding:" phpbb/viewtopic.php?t=4612 ) They can be very dangerous; a number of riders have reported how their ram airs caught seaweed in their bridles, causing their kites to wineglass and spin out of control. 9: Bridle tangles Bridle tangles are disturbingly common with ram airs. Check this thread viewtopic.php?f=1&t=2354115&start=30 In particular, note the statement by "schmoe" that goes: "A bridle tangle on flysurfer can mean that you do not go out... For me I had many lost hours where the wind is cranking because of the bridles. I rather inflate 5 tubes and know that the setup time is exactly 10 minutes, no more no less, than have setup time that is 70% 5 minutes and 30% an hour. And now with one pump, the setup time of a tube is less, so it is not an advantage of the foil anymore." 10 Pre-inflating - Ram users struggle to pre-inflate their kites in a lot of situations eg cross- offshore conditions. I once witnessed a Flysurfer lover trying to launch at a point break in cross offshore conditions. He had to get a friend (inflatable rider) to grab one tip while he grabbed the other tip and they both ran up and down the narrow strip of beach, trying to pre-inflate - to no avail. He had to pack up and go home while the inflatable riders were able to do drift launches. Without pre-inflation, ram users find it very difficult to drift launch. This skill is often required eg Promontory/headland launches. 11: Resale - Contrary to the propaganda of ram lovers, ram airs and inflatos have similar lifespans. The major determinant of lifespan is obsolescence. In 2-3 years, whatever you're using now won't be worth much and will have been superseded. 12: Repairs - Ram air repairs are generally a LOT more expensive. For example, this guy phpbb/viewtopic.php?t=4612 required a PARACHUTE repairer to fix his kite, costing well over $1000. It is interesting to note that Flysurfer refused to honor their warranty, even though the kite was less than a year old. 13: Competition Ram lovers frequently make ridiculous claims about upcoming competitions that they will "dominate." They then go on to get blown out of the water. For example, they said that various kites from Flysurfer (Psycho, Silver Arrow, Warrior, Voodoo, Titan, Insert Name Here..... etc) would dominate the pro kitesurfing circuit. It hasn't happened. No ram riders have ever made it into the top 20 on the PKRA. Ram lovers said ram airs would dominate the Cabo Verde Wave event... They didn't. They said ram airs would dominate the "low-wind" showdown in San Diego - They didn't. The top pro riders ALL ride inflatables because of their superior aerodynamic properties. It's interesting that ALL the world records in hang-time, as well as unofficial records like Eric EcS-P-A-M-L-I-N-K-s crazy jump, are held by inflatables. Ram airs aren't even on the same page. 14: Land and Snow Check out this thread viewtopic.php?f=1&t=2355153 Not only are inflatables superior on water (because of better aerodynamic performance, jumping, stability, and safety), they are also superior on snow and land for the same reasons. 15: Light Winds Ram airs are inferior light wind kites because they: 1 Have excessive drag (bridles, lack of internal rigidity), compromising the Lift/Drag ratio 2 Turn VERY slowly 3 Have incredible inertia. The Speed 2 19 contains over 11kg of air in its pockets, compared to about 3kg in the largest inflatables. 4 Have problems with bridle failure and tangling 5: In wind dropouts, you're much better off with an inflatable. If you choose to go out in light winds, you will occasionally experience full dropouts. No kite, inflato or ram, will stay up in these conditions. It is better to have an inflatable in drop-outs because at least you can support your weight and try to get back to the beach. All ram airs become hopelessly waterlogged and unwieldy after about 45mins and absolutely impossible to water relaunch. Ram airs are just plain dangerous in wind dropouts. Despite what anybody tells you, you won't really have fun on any kite (ram air OR inflatable) unless the wind is over about 8 knots. This is the starting point for BOTH ram airs and inflatables, but because of the reasons I've outlined above, inflatables are vastly superior. And this is just the starting point. You won't really be having fun until it hits about 10 knots on an inflatable OR a ram air. A variety of kites were tested in light wind conditions in San Diego a few years ago viewtopic.php?f=1&t=2319439&hilit=ram+airs+crash+in+san+diego . Despite the ridiculous over-hyped claims from Flysurfer reps like Ted Bautista, Flysurfer ram air kites crashed and burned in Kiteboarder Mag's light-wind showdown in San Diego. The overall consensus was that Flysurfer ram air kites are ok in light wind, but they turn VERY SLOWLY. The overall impression was that there are much better inflatables. It's interesting that a lot of the ram air guys who were excited about this showdown were remarkably SILENT afterwards, in particular, Ted Bautista, the U.S. rep for Flysurfer. His alpha-male chest-beating rants in the lead up to this showdown almost defied belief. For an example of the LIES that ram lovers tell about their kites, checkout viewtopic.php?f=1&t=2350141&p=539227#p539227 16: Geeks and Cameraderie Amongst inflatable riders, there is a certain amount of collegiality. Inflatable riders tend to hang out together and help each other on the beach and on the water. If you fly a ram air, you'll always be a bit on the outside; regarded as a bit weird and not really part of the group. Part of this is because you will always be in a minority on the beach, part of it is because ram airs are so rare that inflatable riders are a scared/unsure of ram airs, and part of it is because, as a group, ram rides ARE a bit weird/nerdy. Anyway, one of the problems with being part of a weird minority on the beach is that it can be very difficult to find people to help launch and land your kite, eg http://www.seabreeze.com.au/forums/topi ... C_ID=51465 Ignore the ram air propaganda. Ignore the lies. Ram airs are aerodynamically inferior to LEIs and nothing can change this.

A site than do gear reviews I like much is http://kiteworldmag.com/

they usually are more objective than other mags I feel

these guys mostly ride LEI only but they did review the P4 10m this year

nice quote from a LEI rider

Quote:

FX: If I had to cross the Atlantic with a kite I'd choose this.

read it at http://kiteworldmag.com/2009-kite-tests/flysurfer-psycho-4-1...

Quote:

Upwind ability (Pulse 2 and P4 seem to be on pair with an SLE for upwind but get on a Speed 2 and you'll be finding yourself jumping and riding toeside to keep from getting too far upwind of the pack) Hangtime (Pulse 2 and P4 both act a lot like SLE's in this catagory but I have found they sit at zenith better when you're hanging where as SLE's have to be worked back n forth to keep them over your head and keep from dropping you like a rock. Speed 2 feels like a glider when you leave the water. super stable and hangs you up there for awhile ) Lightwind lift (I can start jumping earlier and bigger then other riders on equivalently sized LEI's) Lightwind/windshadowed relaunch (Flysurfers can relaunch in lighter conditions then any LEI I've seen on the market) Durability No pumping (no big deal on small kites but try pumping a 17m sometime. that's a work out!) Pack smaller (most of the beaches I ride at require a bit of a walk to get to. its nice to be able to carry 2 kites in one bag and not worry about my pump breaking or getting lost. Also this is great for traveling with a golf bag) Versatility (water,snow,land)

nwsurfwakeskate

What I said is that LEI's are better in medium to high winds and that they are better after all in those winds for water use.

You agreed with me on nuking winds that you need an LEI:

Now to your above commens.

Hangtime: true that speed has an amazing hangtime, but so does many of LEI kites, To name a few: Crossbow and Rhino 07
of course the bigger the kite, the more hang time you have. Hangtime can be good in both kites, so lets leave it out of the picture.

Lightwind lift: I agree that in low wind foils excel, but I am talking about medium to high wind.

Lightwind/windshadowed relaunch: well again, this is out of the discussion, foils are better in low wind.

Durability: well, while it has nothing to do with performance (turning, depower, stability). Foils are no better then LEI's. Foils have bridle problems, and LEI's have bladder problems. Both need maintance. So again durability out of discussion.

No pumping: again nothing to do with flying characteristics. Nevertheless, Sometimes I would prefer to pump then to run ten times trying to inflate the kite when the wind is doming.

Pack smaller: true and I love that about foils. again nothing to do with flying characteristics.

Versatility: true, but again nothing to do with performance. Although You can use LEI's in snow and land aswell, only inconvinience is to pump.

so nwsurfwakeskate you haven't really challenged any of the flying charectiristics I described originally. Turning, Depower, Stability. This is why I say that no one challanged that in flight performance of LEI's in decent wind is better then foils.

Again foils are great kites, all I am saying that if you want to progress into more tricks and jumps I honestly believe that LEI's are better after all.

Cheers

Yuri

With regards to powerzone,

I would say He chose to sell the kites that he enjoyed most. I'm sure he could easily start selling SLE's if he felt the desire to do so.

:yawn:

I'm starting to lose interest in this debate.


I would say the following is my opinion that I "challenge" you with.

Speed 2 has the best hang time in all conditions.
Speed 2 has best upwind in all conditions.
Psycho 4 has equal if not better turning speed then an SLE in all conditions
Any Foil will generate more power in the turns then any SLE
Any Foil will have smoother power delivery then an SLE
Any PeterLynn Arc is better at handling surging or lulling winds then an SLE.
All SLE's have on/off power which means you can switch it off when a gust hits. theoretically making it better for handling gusts then a flysurfer as long as you sheet the bar like a ninja.
Any kite can invert, yard you or fall out of the sky without warning if the wind decides to make that happen.

I wil say SLE's have the best assisted launch and landing and the easiest relaunch granted you're not in light winds. I count secured chicken loop self launching and landing as assisted.

SLE's are cheaper

SLE's are cooler

SLE's are more popular

fast turning does make it easier to get higher at the cost of a more tricky landing less forgiving ride less float and less low end.

speed 2 has 9:1 depower. that is higher then any other kite on the market.

do NOT leave hangtime out of the picture. you quickly disregard that and I'm not really sure why. when I refer to hang time I refer to it regardless of kite size. 12m vs 12m or 12m vs whatever the equivalent LEI is in terms of wind range.

This is my last post on this thread.

I hate my kites. They are crap. They always make me jump so big and float so far. They've ruined grabs for me. I get bored just sitting there holding my tweaked out indy. Now I have to grab all variations of the board on one jump, then what am I to do. I've just used up all my tricks on one jump. Stupid flysurfer, why wouldnt they make their kites crappy and less efficient, now I am forced to progress learn new things cus the norm got normal. Ooo, and it REALLY ticks me off when the red devil flies and rides up wind before anyone else on the beach. Do you know how lonely I get out there? Seriously, its so quiet and calm on that flat calm water all by myself, sooo spooky. Not to mention i broke a finger on a flysurfer!

Thats it. im out. expect to see my gear up for sale. I can't be apart of this group within the group, that pack of guys that seems to be shouting louder and jumping higher.

Ima get me one of those sigma kites cus the leading edge looks cool! Anyone know where I can get a deal on a pump? Powerzone, you carry those right
?

unpack, launch, land, packout---Flysurfer/Lynns (no kite monkeys required)
gusty conditions--ARC
low winds--big Silverarrows/Speed 2s/Speeds
durability--FSer/Lynns
depower--FSer
ease of board starts--Lynns
resale value--FSer
camn make it thru at least one season--FSer/Lynns
turn speed--of course SLE BUT your flying an 11 or 12 while Im on a 15 (duh)
safety system-FSer/Lynns

thats 9 out of 10 for foils

have to say for turns, the 13m Venom is fast.........Im looking forward ro flying BBobs 12m Syn

Packing unpacking foil wins
gusty winds LEI are almost on par with a lynn but handle lulls way better
durability is about the same, bladders that leak , bridals that stretch, and there seems to be much more to tuning a foil and getting to fly right, and some dont even fly right when they are brand new? Just spent all that money and it dont fly right?
Depower most new bow/sle kites depower 100%
Most of my kites are on their second or third season. My wife slammed one kite down on a frozen lake and split the kite right down the middle, sewed it back together and it finished the winter and is halfway through the summer and no bladder problems.
Turn speed your on a 15 and im on a 12? Enuff said there.
Foils are trying to match LEI performance that should say it all there.

Quote:

Originally posted by tridude have to say for turns, the 13m Venom is fast.........Im looking forward ro flying BBobs 12m Syn

That charger vid that was posted looks like the charger has some mean turning abilities... Turns faster than the other arc vids ive seen

But thats kinda lost if you on a 15 to match the power of my 12 isnt it?

end of file

this thread is now in read-only mode

:wee::wee::wee:

All those talks make me want Speed2 10M and North Vegas 08 8M.

read only mode? hmm I guess this shouldn't work then.

I was out on my 12m S2 the other day. matching and outperforming the power of a 10m-15m SLE

Funny thing happened while I was out. I had to rescue a guy on a north kite while I was on the speed 2 12m. he was up wind farther then anybody sitting in the water without his board and his kite taco'ed slowly pulling him downwind. his board was about 30 yards up wind of him.

I was about even with his kite when I saw this. got to his board in one tack. downwinded back to him dropped his board off went on another tack. came back asked if he was alright. he said something was wrong with his kite. so I went down next to his kite. parked mine at zenith and started fiddling with his. turns out it just seemed like the wingtips were hooked up on eachother keeping it taco'ed and therefore impossible to relaunch. So I messed with it. freed up the wingtip and relaunched him. got my kite away from his and watched him ride away.

He thanked me later on for saving his @SS

I feel the need for speed :smug:

one last thing about durability. I'll phrase this as a question so you guys can figure it out.


what would you rather do? spend a few hours/days searching for a pinhole leak and then waiting a few hours after patching it before you can pump your kite and fly?

or

spend 5-10 minutes doing a mixer test and resetting things back to you're preferred tune?


snobdr referenced leaks vs stretching as similar. I don't see them as similar at all. leaks require repairs and repair materials. bridles stretching requires a pair of hands and eyes to make some adjustments. maybe someone else can blow holes in my argument though.

blow holes.... lol

it sure does say enough....................my 15 has more top end than a 12m bow...............snob where on the coast are you? I wouldnt mind flying a weekend session with you...........................

these kites have potential for real fun factor

Was just out on my 16 LEI in 8 knots. Staying upwind on spleene door no problem. At times had to sign the kite when it was lulling. Then wind died suddenly completely, was swiming with it for 20 minutes. Thanks god I had an LEI, Can't imagine myself swimming with my ex 17 meter speed in 2 meter waves for half kilometer.

wow that sounds like it sucked big time....

that's why I don't even bother with wind less then 14mph. its just too unpredictable and can die or pickup without warning.

I've self rescued on a SA1.5 17m a few times....
depending on how rough those seas were i would almost prefer to roll up the kite and swim in with it on my board regardless of if its a foil or an LEI. swimming in kites sucks and is incredibly slow. on the other hand, if you had enough wind for the kite to pull you back in self rescue mode then odds are you probably would have been able to keep an arrow flying.

heres a question
what would u rather have?
I kite that flys like it should the first time you fly it or
One that flys like crap the first time, then in frustration you spend endless hours on the internet searching for the cure, then another session of frustration trying to get it to fly right , more searching , more tinkering with lines, more frustration..............

I can find a pinhole leak in a bladder in less then 5 minutes, Another 5 to pull the bladder, Stick on a patch wich comes with the kite, or if i dont have one borrow one from another kiter because most fly LEIs anyway, another 5 mins to put the bladder back in, and it flies like new.

OR JUST FLY ARCS!!!!

LOL

Quote:

Originally posted by snobdr heres a question what would u rather have? I kite that flys like it should the first time you fly it or One that flys like crap the first time, then in frustration you spend endless hours on the internet searching for the cure, then another session of frustration trying to get it to fly right , more searching , more tinkering with lines, more frustration.............. I can find a pinhole leak in a bladder in less then 5 minutes, Another 5 to pull the bladder, Stick on a patch wich comes with the kite, or if i dont have one borrow one from another kiter because most fly LEIs anyway, another 5 mins to put the bladder back in, and it flies like new.

a kite that flies like it should when you first buy it.

so the link must have been designed to fly like crap then right?

at least it will never be as bad as the 06 waroo I think that's my new favorite quote

to be fair. all the 09 kites seem to be pretty good. makes me a little excited for 2010 :shocked2:

Ice cream is the best!!!!!!!

Soft serve is for sissies

:moon:

One other thought.

All you guys who fly on spectra are just plain goofy.
Why fly spectra when you can fly with KEVLAR lines, and have the entire beach/soccer field/snow field/ocean to yourself!!!

:evil:

Kevlar....LOL!!! CSA, I love reading your posts, thanks for the chuckle. You know I will be thinking about that next time I am at the soccer park.

no no no kevlar is crap...you gotta be using aramid!


wait....those 2 things are the same.....lol

Back in the day of Catch the wind the fly line of choice was kevlar. Those of us on the kite crews wouldn't be caught dead flying anything else at D-river or Moolack Beach. Due to the large number of Gayla "Bat" kites in the air.

As no one else has touched on the REAL advantage of ARCS and autozenith, please allow me to verbalize the most important attribute:
The ability to stop your session, stand in waist deep water, pull your "stuff" out of your shorty, and take a good long piss while the kite just floats over your head. Hands off the bar, no worries, no diving kites, no getting yanked around while you try to take care of business.
Now let's see if you LEI flyers can pull that off with as little hassle.
Bet you're reconsidering ARCS now eh?