Maybe this should have its own thread, but I think it pretty spot on to this conversation here. Today I had my first OBE, despite use of kite killers and the "Nose scrunch" system. It was my own fault since I got sloppy. I installed the nose scrunch depow method on my NPW's. I'd been using a 2.9 M NPW 21 and then switched to a 2.8 M NPW 9b - trying to see which I like best. To make the method work, you have to get the 3rd line the right length so that it will kill the kite -dead. So while I had the length correct for the 21, I should have shortened it for the 9b, but I didn't in my haste.

So, I get loaded up, and was starting to think I should bail (let go of the bar) when I think it went on its own anyway. Suddenly we are going sideways, and I'm being drug on the ground. Now I normally try to keep the kite killer lose enough to slip off my hand, in such situations. But this time it didn't happen until I was drug across the ground a ways.

This vid shows a couple of points. 1,) How quick it all happens. 2.) The kite crumpling up, then reinflating because the line was too long to actually kill it (instead of just pissing it off). 3.) Me getting drug because I was leashed to the kite. Bear in mind this was only a 2.8 M kite.

This isn't quite the same scenario as Windstruck describes, but it is similar.

Ouch! Good soundtrack though Randy.

I had color coded my line corresponding to the kite I was flying. Kinda missing my Stars a little...

Quote: Originally posted by Randy

Maybe this should have its own thread, but I think it pretty spot on to this conversation here. Today I had my first OBE, despite use of kite killers and the "Nose scrunch" system. It was my own fault since I got sloppy. I installed the nose scrunch depow method on my NPW's. I'd been using a 2.9 M NPW 21 and then switched to a 2.8 M NPW 9b - trying to see which I like best. To make the method work, you have to get the 3rd line the right length so that it will kill the kite -dead. So while I had the length correct for the 21, I should have shortened it for the 9b, but I didn't in my haste. So, I get loaded up, and was starting to think I should bail (let go of the bar) when I think it went on its own anyway. Suddenly we are going sideways, and I'm being drug on the ground. Now I normally try to keep the kite killer lose enough to slip off my hand, in such situations. But this time it didn't happen until I was drug across the ground a ways. This vid shows a couple of points. 1,) How quick it all happens. 2.) The kite crumpling up, then reinflating because the line was too long to actually kill it (instead of just pissing it off). 3.) Me getting drug because I was leashed to the kite. Bear in mind this was only a 2.8 M kite. This isn't quite the same scenario as Windstruck describes, but it is similar.

Glad you aren't an extra now on The Walking Dead. That's power Kiting for you. Everything is fine right up to the instant when it isn't. Reinflation of a NPW is a beiatch.

Wow great vid! Especially for us noobs that dont realize the power involved in this sport. Im taking it more seriously.

From flying I always learned to do a very through preflight. Some times it just gets you. I let a passenger out one time turned around to head back home with out getting out for a break(should have). The kicker was I should have paid more attention to the fact he had to close the door twice, actually slam it the last time. Once airborne and up to a bit of speed all hell broke loose. Talk about brown trousers wondering what it is and how long before the airframe gives up! After getting my butt on the ground as fast as I could I discovered the seat belt had been left outside the door beating hell out of the fuselage(big repair). Had a buddy have an even bigger time not latching the cowling properly!

So question: why not strap the killer to the buggy frame? If you bail you are out of the fray(directly).

I think you are in worse shape then. You might just become a passenger in a buggy that is careening and tumbling to doom.

Somehow it's always the little kites that spank you the hardest. Oldben we have a lot in common. Gotta get you down to Jekyll soon now that the seabreezes are cranking up.

That would be great AC!

Hope to have some of the stuff Sean has sent me today. I screwed up the zip on my address by interchanging #s(have a bit of dyslexia) and some of it went to Atlanta. Hopefully they can figure Darien is not in the metro area!

Sean has gone above and beyond being helpful from his end with this!

Once all the stuff is in and sorted thru Im ready to get rolling literally.

So flying the small foil the other day in higher winds I can really appreciate the finer flying characteristics of a 4liner.
Being able to back the kite down would have been nice! Thinking maybe after a good deal of time on the bar my left hand may strengthen, got a real work out the other day!

Could a Rush Pro V(3 lines) be converted to 4 lines? It has brake bridles that are linked. Would it fly as a 4liner on handles? Maybe I could convert this to handles and try it out as its really 2.7msq as I remember and would be a good size to try on. Plus its already bought!

When I had it I tried to modify my three line Hq rush 4 pro 350 too fly with four lines on handles. It kind of worked but was always not quite right compared to my hq alpha 2.5. I tried multiple points for attaching the back two brake lines to the like but it always crumpled (or didn't) oddly when the brakes were applied. Eventually I sold it and picked up a pdk buster soulfly pro 3.3 from big kid.

(not-so-old)ben: Great news that you are feeling like you may be able to develop the hand strength to do some handled flying! You may not have been thinking about this, but the NASA STAR-2s rushing your way from Sean can be rigged to fly off of handles quite nicely. What you want are some Z-Bridles. These are easy to mock up yourself or Steffen sells them here:

http://www.venturi-power.de/index.php?cat=c66_other-products...

I have my three small NS3s rigged with these exact Z-bridles and they fly great. The way a Z-bridle works is they allow the NPW to be flown off of all the bridles split left to right (like a two-line kite) with all the tension coming through the top lines coming into the tops of the handles. Once you have the tension right in the brake lines you can engage just a few bridles at the base of the kite by flexing the handles back just like you'd do with continuously split bridles. Of course it is possible to just split the bridles and run the brake lines right to them. I've tried it both ways and I for one prefer the control of the Z-bridles over the setup without them. Here is how you split the bridles (picture is for NS3s but will be the same for the NS2s you're getting, or close enough):

[img][/img]

Even with Z-Bridles installed you can still fly the NS2s or NS3s off of the standard 3-line bar. With the handles you'll be engaging all the main bridles but NOT the bridling for the nose of the kite that the 3rd line would normally be attached to. In that case you just leave the yellow pigtail attached to the nose of the kite (there's a little spot for it). When flying off of the 3-line bar, you hook the yellow center pigtail to the center line and just combine the Z-bridle pigtails together, in essence taking it out of the picture. Easy peasy, nice and easy!

Thanks yall for the input and advice!

I had been looking at the Alpha. Its certainly reasonable enough in cost. I want to be able to fly foils as well as Nasa kites.
Guess the Rush will wind up on ebay.
Im inclined to buy the 3.5 Alpha its only about $25 more than the 2.5. The reasoning is once Im able to fly the handles a 3.5 may be used more in this area. Seems like a good compromise between a big and small kite. About to run out of kite money, but probably can squeeze enough out for this kite. If I cant handle the handles, I can put it on the PL cross over bar I have.

Thoughts?

Wind struck thanks for the input on the Nasa! Drawing explains a lot!

I had read about the Z bridles but since I had not really considered being able to fly handles didnt really pursue the idea. Now that I understand the concept and realize that Seans kites can be rigged that way Im sold on trying a Nasa on handles after I get a bit of bar time(love hanging out at the bar!).

I've got a good feeling Ben is going to fit nicely into the mad house. No such thing as too many kites. Lol
Yes Ben we will laugh about my user name at JIBE.

Quote:

Thoughts?

Why would you want an Alpha if you've got a 4m NS2 on the way? It's not going to do anything the Nasa's won't do and it will be less usable in gusty wind. Wait for your nasa's to turn up, fly the snot out of them. Get together with other flyers and try their kites - but buying any more foils at this point seems like a waste of money - particularly a beginner foil like the Alpha. I had the Beamer 2m & 4m - both good kites but they became superfluous as time went on and I sold them. I can pretty much guarantee the Alpha will go the same way.

Save your $$$ for a depower or two down the track after you've flown some different ones.

I agree with John. I actually did just that - got an Alpha while the NPW was on the way because I thought I needed to learn to fly 4 line. It turned out ok because I sold the kite as kite-only and kept the handles and lines which I would have had to buy anyway. Absent z-bridles the flying technique between the two kinds of kites differs.

Of course, you can never have too many kites....

Sounds like good advice John and Randy.

The only 4 liners I have(non LEI) are the 5m Beamer and 6m Sky Tiger. Was thinking the 2.5 Alpha would make a decent foil trainer and higher wind kite. @$218 its not a bank breaker and the handles can be used with the NPWs on Zs. I can cut loose the 3m Rush to cover some of the cost.

Listen to me rationalize!

Good news is the fine folks at USPS figured out where Darien is and the kites and buggy are in JAX. Hopefully have it all tomorrow. Cant wait!

THANKS SEAN!!

Got all the nice stuff from Sean this AM.

Got the buggy together no problem but spent a long time fussing with the seat. Finally concluded the dang thing sucks. Looked up the manual on line and found I had it in backwards. Turned it around fussed with it some more and it still sucked just not as much. The saving grace for my not too good old back was the loop and straps Sean had modded. I found if I crossed the straps I got good back support between the shoulder blades. Not lexus comfortable but not too bad.

Looked the kites over(all nice) and checked out the bars. Got the depower bar figured. My take on it is its really a trimable system and not a true depower. Its true pulling the yellow ball depowers the kite but not in the way a depower foil or LEI does. Doesnt matter it still gives some power adjustability.

Gonna try the 2.5 tomorrow at Jekyll looks like low tide and the seabreeze coincide in the afternoon.

Many thanks to all of yall for your input, advice, and guidance!!

Hey Ben glad the stuff got there. Hopefully you could tell how I had the homemade backrest set up from my picture of it in the email. The webbing was tied in a knot around the Down tube where the side rails connect. I then neatly folded the excess and taped to the downtube with elictrical tape to keep it tidy. You can configure it however you want but thats how I did it. You have to have the straps tied tight with little slack to keep the blue pex from bending backwards. I was going for supportive but somewhat flexible on that design so I didn't have a rigid piece behind my back. It's pretty comfy once dialed in. Still not Lexus comfy though.

(not so old) Ben: Memory serves that the buggy you just acquired from Sean is a venerable Peter Lynn. Notorious for making your back feel sore. You've stumbled on the reason a lot of us don't use that rail and seat system. Perfectly serviceable, and I'm sure Sean did good things to improve upon it comfort wise, but there's only so much lipstick to go around in the swine yard.

My buggy started as a stock PL BigFoot+ but after a while I upgraded the rail and seat system with a fantastic setup from Van Nguyen, a great fabricator down in the Houston area. Night and day difference. Nobody ever said this sport came cheap! :evil:

Yeah Sean
Your loop/strap combo is right on. After I got the seat in and adjusted I found little to no support for the upper body. I guess dynamically with the kite pulling maybe its better. With the loop/straps it allows just a bit of recline and back support. I looked at the pic you sent and saw the plan. All I did different was to cross the straps. Now my back is basically supported by the straps before really laying on the loop. Works great!


Good idea you had!

Yep Windstruck

I can see some modding would certainly be justified! After sitting in a stock seat set up a while, an OBE just might be a welcome break!

Quote: Originally posted by oldben

I guess dynamically with the kite pulling maybe its better.

Sorry (not so old) Ben, but it's worse. When holding the kite you are not only not supported but you are also twisted to the side. Remember that you are tacking so the buggy is rolling more or less cross wind. This is particularly straining after a while just holding a bar or handle not stropped or chicken looped in to a harness. Even hooked in you are still twisted to the side holding the bar. With a NS bar hooked in via the trapeze loop there is no load on your arms and you just work the bar a bit with your fingers to steer the kite. Same with a stropped set of handles. With a DP kite there will be bar pressure you need to resist with your arms, and being twisted to the side as you are this will likely get uncomfortable after a while.

We warned you to not get addicted to this sport! Hide your wallet and freeze your bank accounts while you still have a chance. :evil:

You should post some pictures, I'm curious.

Heres a pic of the relace.

I must have been in and out of the bug 10k times adjusting everything to the most minute detail.
Must have made my back pretty sore. Went out this AM and sat down and its (relatively speaking) Lexus comfy. I like it.
The biggest seat adjustment was to get the back rim loose enough so it didnt cut into the small of the back. This has clearly removed most of the Marquis de Sade desigin to the seat.
My butts not going to clear any speed bumps, but thats part of the fun I guess. Maybe I can hit something and enjoy an OBE at the same time.

Its a delicate balance!

Finally got a chance to fly one of the Ns2s. Flew the 2.5m on a 2 line bar just to get a feel for it Only had time to fly locally
at the R/C field. It has lousy dirty wind due to trees.

They are nice flying kites, even in the chopped up wind it was stable and controllable. Made some good power in the gusts for its size.

The only strange thing was on the first launch the kite wanted to turn over and fly upside down. it launched normally then at about 20 ft it spun over and stayed that way. Second try it flew fine for the rest of the time. Nothing was changed with the kite or lines. I assume a wind condition?

So I guess when I get some time to make it to Jekyll, its put up or shut up with the buggy. Anybody going any time soon?

Quote: Originally posted by oldben

Finally got a chance to fly one of the Ns2s. ... The only strange thing was on the first launch the kite wanted to turn over and fly upside down.

Welcome to flying NASA Stars. They all seem to back fly in the right combination of conditions and piloting. You'll get used to it and proficient at taking them out of that condition.

Practice practice practice

MIght also note with the Nasa's - it's very easy to get a bridle line just hooked around one of the knots the kite lines attach to - it can make for some very interesting flying behavior.

You are right Windstruck need a lot of time on the handle.

Should have tried a bigger kite yesterday but figured better to err on the small side. In a constant wind the 2.5
would have been plenty for static.

John
Might have had a line wrapped around a part of the bridle. I rechecked everything, straightened the kite back out
and all was well. Really like how it flew.

My DFO 9 has passed thru customs, maybe it will be here this week. Be interesting to compare kites.

Another question.

I found with the Sky Tiger HI60 a Flexfoil 4 line control bar. Looks like the brakes tie into the center lines which have
a pull strap adjustment and the fronts on the outside.

Cant the line positions be reversed if the kite flys better with brake input? A set of killers could be added to the brake
lines when on the outside.

Right or wrong. Trying to decide if I need the bar or not.

Dont know anything about that bar or kite but normally with a 4 line bar the two lines connected to the center are the power lines and the outside lines are the brake or steering lines. The center lines are adjusted to get the right power/brake setting. I've flown NPW kites with 4 line bar wo problem. Again not sure how that particular bar is set up but it sounds just like a normal 4 line bar.

Thanks for the reply Randy.

Seems that maybe this one is different? The center lines are anchored to a loop and slide through an eyelet
as the bar is moved side to side. Also the outer guide lines are red and blue seeming indicating the power lines.
I think with slight bit of modding I can make it work either way. I know some kites like brake input, not sure this bar as is offers much.

I have a PL crossover, just seems a bit clunky for static flying. Was waning to use this one for static only.

Other wise I will fleabay it.

Quote: Originally posted by oldben

Thanks for the reply Randy. Seems that maybe this one is different? The center lines are anchored to a loop and slide through an eyelet as the bar is moved side to side. Also the outer guide lines are red and blue seeming indicating the power lines. I think with slight bit of modding I can make it work either way. I know some kites like brake input, not sure this bar as is offers much. I have a PL crossover, just seems a bit clunky for static flying. Was waning to use this one for static only. Other wise I will fleabay it.

A picture would be worth a 1000 words or at least several dozen, but sounds very much to me like an ordinary 4 line bar. Line color is not all that reliable of a guide, but I've seen bars where the center are both one color and the out lines are color coded. Sounds like the center is set up to be adjustable. It is the relative length of the power v. brake lines that matters not which one is being adjusted. So moving the power in and out has the same effect as moving the brake lines.

Got ya.

Think I will give it a try.