WORD

Had discussion with another guy who flies foils, and we compared P4 12 and P2 12 to inflatables and came to uniform conclusion that bowkites and some of the SLE's such as 12 rhino 07 have better low end then foils! Speed 2 12 was the only one better with low end.

So foils are not as efficient after all!

Revolution Blasts are more efficient.:evil:



Just stirring the pot!

and i though i could have the last word

Quote:

Originally posted by bloah So foils are not as efficient after all!

I manage to ride upwind with the P4 15m in below 10 knots with the door.

But I admit it is not as easy as with the S2. You gotta get used to it, otherwise you can create too much backstall and this is when the LEI becomes more efficient than the P4.

The P4 takes longer to learn it fly. But once you dial in, it is powerful. Check for FredBGG on foilzone for his videos. This guy is 6'4'' and 225lbs, and the P4 15m is his light wind kite.

And I have also fly this kite in Cuba Varadero this spring in above 20 knots on a small board with ease (trap trim half way only) when other another guy just a bit heavier than me was overpowered on a F-One bandit DOS 14m.

I had the P4 10m, and I also fly a Cabrinha SB4 IDS 12m. As for me, the P4 10m gave me more range (both sides). But the Cab is still a sweet kite to fly too.

Denice
Yeas absolutely you can get some descent low wind from P4's, you just have to be careful not to backstall the kite. Some people compare P4 15 to P2 12 in power wise, do you think it is true? Because real world example I was on P2 12 and spleene door going upwind a guy with monster door and P4 15 couldn't even ride upwind! He was 30 pounds more then I was thought! But still.

Quote:

Originally posted by bloah Denice Yeas absolutely you can get some descent low wind from P4's, you just have to be careful not to backstall the kite. Some people compare P4 15 to P2 12 in power wise, do you think it is true? Because real world example I was on P2 12 and spleene door going upwind a guy with monster door and P4 15 couldn't even ride upwind! He was 30 pounds more then I was thought! But still.

Perhaps you were just better than he was.

Quote:

Originally posted by bloah Denice Yeas absolutely you can get some descent low wind from P4's, you just have to be careful not to backstall the kite. Some people compare P4 15 to P2 12 in power wise, do you think it is true? Because real world example I was on P2 12 and spleene door going upwind a guy with monster door and P4 15 couldn't even ride upwind! He was 30 pounds more then I was thought! But still.

It's either the guy has no skill, or he does not understand the way to fly the P4 yet.

Even me sometimes, after a long session, I dont get much low end from the P4. Probably more fatigue and less prompt to fly it properly in LW.

Much easier to ride a Pulse2 or Speed2 in light winds. But still doable with some practice for the P4.

The advantage of the P4 is really in medium and strong winds. Turn fast, gugh depower, and jump height. I find easier to jump with this kite.

Quote:

Originally posted by live2hover Perhaps you were just better than he was.

Most likely. I see this a lot on paintball forums - someone will say "this person was shooting all day with Marker A and couldn't hit Target X, but I walked over with my Marker B and hit it first try." Of course, they're a different person with different gear shooting different paint - changing every variable and using a sample size of one provides absolutely zero evidence useful for drawing a meaningful conclusion. The only way evidence like that (i.e., empirical data not from an actual scientific test) would provide any useful data would be to get a large enough sample size that the variables like skill and other gear average out, like 100 riders with Kite A not being able to go upwind while 100 riders with Kite B cruise upwind effortlessly.

Anecdotes won't help - for every anecdote the LEI guys come up with to support their side, the foil guys can come up with one that supports their side (and vice versa). As long as we keep using a sample size of one, there are hundreds of compounding variables that could each determine the outcome, so we can't assume that the kite is the only variable that matters.

ahhh I love it when someone else chimes in and explains design of experiment analysis :D

Pixelguru you are an engineer aren't you.

P4 does jump very nicely! but is not very floaty!

Quote:

Originally posted by bloah P4 does jump very nicely! but is not very floaty!

may be the speed3 will do it

same height and turn speed as P4
same float as speed2

I just hope that doesn't translate to ultra high aspect wingtips tucking in gusts :shocked2:

Quote:

Originally posted by nwsurfwakeskate ahhh I love it when someone else chimes in and explains design of experiment analysis :D Pixelguru you are an engineer aren't you.

Nope. Philosophy major.

Okay, okay, I started as an engineer - good guess. I've heard the combination can be deadly.

It's funny the argument for foils usually stems around light wind, i think the most common kiting wind is probably 15-20mph, like we had today.Lots of people out on the water in socal, all cruising upwind, all having a great time, but i was the only one busting enormous jumps and stupid float on my 15sa... it does have a great low end no doubt, but i think this kite really shines in 15-20mph when everyone else is squeezing out small jumps i'm just going hugeeeee!!!! I did my first heart attack today i was quite happy

15-20 is my favorite wind range. so forgiving


I suppose if I didn't know about foils i'd hate that light of wind though. all you can really do when its that light is ride a skimboard or do wakestyle on a LEI

cool Dom but remember youve got mad skillz.........................but props to the SAs for jumping...............Nate and I were the only ones out today for a few hours and Nate was jumping on the Arrow..........not huge but decent boosts............................:duh::duh:

bump :wee:

I think 1.5 mod for silver arrow is bad compared to stock for light wind setup and here is why:

Spleene door and 16 meter LEI, I am riding today...
But not on Silver Arrow 17 1.5..... Flies perfect with B2 C1, but doesnt pull....

In retrospect, my original speed 17 pulled way more then 1.5...
Then the kite was just received from powerzone and it still pulled #@%$#!ty....

After playing with bridle all day,,, it seems that the mod itself is the problem..

1.5 starts to pull only in 10 knots,,, but why have it then?

So that you don't die when the wind picks up

1.5 mod gives you more top end and faster turning at the expense of losing some low end. So I would say yes your results make sense.

I'm surprised you did the 1.5 mod at all if you weren't concerned with the limited wind range of the SA 17m. I suppose if that's the case and you want more low end you could always go the other direction and convert the 17m SA1.5 into a fixed bridle :roll:


Looks like this dead horse of a thread has been dug up to beat it some more

that kite is my friends, when we bought originally, we had no idea that 1.5 sucks at low end as everybody on forums way overhyped the mod...

YES it turns faster, flies better and has more depower, but it just wouldn't pull....

And this is not just this kite,,, compared to my past stock version, two of my other friends have 1.5 and they just CANT get the same low end as the original stock version...

I used to have a SA1.5 I bought it after it had been modded.

i loved that kite and i only went out on it if it was blowing a minimum of 10knots

definitely a great kite for 10-18knots if you're around 190lbs

I sold it because i usually get enough wind to ride smaller kites like 12m and 10m and when you get used to that, puttin' around in light wind with a big slow kite gets kinda boring... At least for me anyway. I'd rather go do some mountain biking or hang out with friends/family.

for those who get long stretches of light wind I could see getting a big kite to keep the addiction going.

Bloah, you are the FIRST and only guy I have ever heard that boasts the 1.5 mod was a bad thing. I just sold mine to tridude, and I haven't heard so much excitement out of a guy on a kite in a long time.

Good luck with yer tubes. May the pump be with you.

all I can say there have been at least 4 dayz when the 17m SA was the only kite out..........................once you past the shore break, beach swell its smooth sailing, and jumping too..............................

bigsteve
My only complain about 1.5 is the reduced low end!

Oh, and btw, 4 or so silver arrow collapsed few days ago due to gusty conditions while tube riders were still riding....

Same yesterday, I was out on 12 meter and spleene door while my friend's new silver arrow collapsed about 5 times due to some gusts.... WHile I was riding and jumping,,,,barely felt them....

Bottom line, 10 knots wind, two people out on 12 meter kites on spleene doors. One new silver arrow 2.5,,, keeps collapsing....

So much for 3300$.....

P.S. I am not trying to bash silver arrow kite,, it is still great kite,,,, but it is not perfect and I am just pointing out the facts....

i thought this thread had died. is this its ghost?

Quote:

Originally posted by bloah bigsteve My only complain about 1.5 is the reduced low end! Oh, and btw, 4 or so silver arrow collapsed few days ago due to gusty conditions while tube riders were still riding.... Same yesterday, I was out on 12 meter and spleene door while my friend's new silver arrow collapsed about 5 times due to some gusts.... WHile I was riding and jumping,,,,barely felt them.... Bottom line, 10 knots wind, two people out on 12 meter kites on spleene doors. One new silver arrow 2.5,,, keeps collapsing.... So much for 3300$..... P.S. I am not trying to bash silver arrow kite,, it is still great kite,,,, but it is not perfect and I am just pointing out the facts....

I see 4 pieces of missing information here.

1. SA2.5 riders weight as well as the weight of the guys cruising on 12m's
2. SA2.5 Tune
3. SA2.5 Size 17m or 19m?
4. pilots skill level and experience with speed 2 kites.


Flysurfer Speed kites are designed for advanced riders. meaning things like collapsing and more likely to happen when you screw up. The Psycho 4 is the same way. its an advanced kite. collapsing is a disadvantage of foils because they don't have the rigid air frame inflatos have. It bothers some people and some don't care or know how to minimize collapsing due to how they fly.

My speed 2 12m almost always collapses on me when I screw up a jump and let the kite get behind me. its fine with me because its expected and I'm almost always able to get it to reopen before it hits the water. I keep the bar in when it reopens and that way it doesn't yard me. if it hits the water I'm usually able to get it to reopen there as well.


I will say to be fair. that I have yet to find a foil that does well in gusty conditions. other then of course the ARC's but even ARC's do not have as much depower as you might need if you suddenly get a gust of 40mph when you're rigged for low-mid 20's

I prefer foils. specifically speed 2's for light smooth summer thermals and SLE's for the crazy storm fronts we get during the rest of the year

new to this forum wow a lot of passion here. I think that's great.

LEI's are better? depends on the day and what you like but personally I want a kite with the power performance hangtime and depower of my Speed 2 19 and 12 with the simplicity turning speed and friendliness of my 08 Waroo 11 on AA setting. Untill then I guess I'll just have to bring them all to the beach. Could be worse problems there are a lot of great kites out there especially when I look at my first kite a 2 line Wipika 5.0 I just wish I was a better rider after 10 years of kiteboarding.

More wind is better - I really like my Cab SB8 but only get to break it out a few times each year. For the crappy winds we get here in Miami especially during the summer the SA19 keeps me satisfied.

Speed'2 for thermal winds are amazing....
The person on Speed 2.5 19 meter with one year skill at 180 pounds, the person on 12 SLE was 185 pounds and spleene door!

Ive never seen a 12m inflato fly in 10 knots.........Ive seen one try...............again today the 12m Pulse 2, 10m Pulse were first on the water..................10 to 12 knots..............winds came up and got a bit punchy...........the P2/Pulses rocked......I was getting futther upwind than lets see..........North, OR, JL, SS...............and I have witnesses....................this thread can go back and fotth so lets agree to fly what you like and fly it well......................:duh::duh:

Quote:

Originally posted by nwsurfwakeskate Quote: Originally posted by bloah bigsteve My only complain about 1.5 is the reduced low end! Oh, and btw, 4 or so silver arrow collapsed few days ago due to gusty conditions while tube riders were still riding.... Same yesterday, I was out on 12 meter and spleene door while my friend's new silver arrow collapsed about 5 times due to some gusts.... WHile I was riding and jumping,,,,barely felt them.... Bottom line, 10 knots wind, two people out on 12 meter kites on spleene doors. One new silver arrow 2.5,,, keeps collapsing.... So much for 3300$..... P.S. I am not trying to bash silver arrow kite,, it is still great kite,,,, but it is not perfect and I am just pointing out the facts.... I see 4 pieces of missing information here. 1. SA2.5 riders weight as well as the weight of the guys cruising on 12m's 2. SA2.5 Tune 3. SA2.5 Size 17m or 19m? 4. pilots skill level and experience with speed 2 kites. Flysurfer Speed kites are designed for advanced riders. meaning things like collapsing and more likely to happen when you screw up. The Psycho 4 is the same way. its an advanced kite. collapsing is a disadvantage of foils because they don't have the rigid air frame inflatos have. It bothers some people and some don't care or know how to minimize collapsing due to how they fly. My speed 2 12m almost always collapses on me when I screw up a jump and let the kite get behind me. its fine with me because its expected and I'm almost always able to get it to reopen before it hits the water. I keep the bar in when it reopens and that way it doesn't yard me. if it hits the water I'm usually able to get it to reopen there as well. I will say to be fair. that I have yet to find a foil that does well in gusty conditions. other then of course the ARC's but even ARC's do not have as much depower as you might need if you suddenly get a gust of 40mph when you're rigged for low-mid 20's I prefer foils. specifically speed 2's for light smooth summer thermals and SLE's for the crazy storm fronts we get during the rest of the year

Just a tip if you don't know it already...with the speeds, when you blow it and the kite gets flukey and loses it's shape, grab one of the rear lines as far up as you can and pull it in. It really helps avoid the kite collapsing in half or worse, ending up in a bow tie.