In an effort to salvage my " good terrain but sucky wind" local site, I have been casting about for a kite that might work there.
I haven't tried my conventional foils there yet, but I'm skeptical about their chances.
The big " Gotcha!" This site throws me is the " 8 mph to ZERO in 1 second" wind lulls.
I can take the gusts (better), but these darned lulls are making me crazy.
I will not try to buggy there with my Revs any more.
Susan thinks a NPW would work there.
I need to see it for myself before buying.
Does anyone have one of these critters I could try out at my site before I end up with another kind of kite I really don't like?
I'll happily pay a deposit and go with the " U break 'm, U buy 'm" deal.
Anybody?
Bob

Pity you're on the other side of the pond as I'd give you a shot with an NPW. I fly (buggy) inland with similar conditions, but I also have a slope to contend with!! I fly with a 5m, 8m and a 11.8m NPW. Obviously a sudden lull will cause most kites to luff, but with the NPWs they will still fly and give you chance to work the kite in the lower wind, any gusts and the NPW also has a tendency to accelerate through the window as the power comes back on.
I've tried various types of NPW from models 3,5, 9b, High Aspect and the 21. The 3, 5 and 9b all suffer from nose collapse to some extent and need more input than a foil. However the NPW21 is far less prone to collapse and is a much smoother flier than the others.

Good luck

The other thing is going for a de-power kite to cope with the varying conditions, I've added a depower system to my 8 and 11.8m NPWs and my 8.5m Blade for the very reason of changing wind.

curious about the depower on Nasa. Off bar...... or handles?

what does the depower look like ?......:roll:

At present I use them on handles, but they also work with a turbo bar. Letting the brake lines go slack means the kite goes to a lower AoA, when the brake/power lines are equal it's at it's "normal" AoA, then pulling the brakes increases the AoA further to a point, then the AoA is prevented from increasing and the brakes come on, allowing the kite to back stall.
There is a little trick with NPWs in that if the brake line bridles are dualled up, with one set to the power lines and the other to the brake lines then they can be flown without constant brake input, this then allows the AoA to be controlled. My 5m is still fb with this mod on the brakes and can be flown with slack brake lines.
Little difficult to see but this shows my 5m NPW21 flying with no brake input

I understand there are some options when connecticting lower bridals to either brake line or power lines.

In general for say a 9b NPW the middle panel has the "A" bridles numbered 1-12 with 11/12 being the brake lines. The "C" bridles are numbered 1-6 with 5/6 being brake lines. What I do is make two sets of these bridle lines, one set to the brake leader as normal, but the second set to the power line leader. The diagram below shows just the "A" bridles (not cascade bridle) the red lines are the extra ones I add.

I have a set of NPWs from Susan, and they are great. I use the PKD handles because I can adjust the brakes so I can park and ride.
I also have a set of the Born-Kite NPWs that can be flown on a bar or handles.
I will have both sets at XBAN, WW, and Jibe if you are able to make it. All my stuff is available for demo or if you have to have it, for sale.

The real thing would be to try it..... see now much difference the kite control is, I guess.

Did you add the extra lines after completion or while making?

I've seen one of Susan's NPW. Great quality material... and sewing.

Another alternative to a separate set of brake lines is some extra pigtails (sometimes referred to as a Z bridle...)




as used in this video...

I added the dual brake lines after building, as a mod to one of my kites. Seeing the difference I added it to all of then, it is a pretty straight forward thing to do. I'm not sure how the bridle attachments are done on your NASAs but the way I do it makes adding / changing bridles very easy. The other thing is to use proper dyneema bridle line. I would think your kites are a standard build so getting line lengths from the build calculator is easy.

Looking at the "Z" bridle it's pretty much doing the same thing, no brake input and the kite has the brake lines attached to the power lines keeping the TE tension a NASA needs to fly.

Here's how I do my bridle attachments, the bridle is then attached with a slip knot.

Why do kites get right in your brain!! Thanks for the picture of the "Z" bridle, just been out walking the dogs and that has been going around in my head, going to give that a tryout on my 5m NPW it looks a lot neater than dualling the whole brake bridle.

Cheers

Thinking about this...

Here's what i seem to sense...though I might be all wrong:

Bige123's dual line method creates a slightly more seperated angle of projectory and distance between the power line bridal group and brake line bridal group. The Z bridal attatchment - 'pinches' the angles(skews) both bridal groups (power and brake)closer together . The two bridal bunch groupings are closer distance to each other and thus the distance betwee the power and brake fly lines are closer at the pigtail/bridal bunch.

The input in dual mod goes direct to fabric.... The Z mod has indirect input- first at the Z mod and then to fabric.

But they both work. Just wonder if one is more sensitive.

In these mod methods, I guess you're changing the AOA when applying the braking, then... and thus ..viola!...Depower?

Don't confuse 'bridal bunch' with this:

Fair point on the two different methods, when I dual the brakes, I fly the kite then release the brakes to check I have the "sweet spot" if the kite back stalls the new brake lines need releasing a bit, if the nose bridles look slack then the new lines need to be shortened. Cascade bridling makes this relatively easy, I add a brake adjuster for fine tuning.
I have made a "Z" bridle this afternoon to test to see if one is better than the other, if there is no difference, then the "Z" would be my preferred option due to less bridle lines. I'll pop a couple of pics up once I've tried it out.

One point to make though is the brake lines do not make a change in AoA and therefore not a depower. The brake lines change the profile of the trailing edge only eventually causing a back stall.

Lol on the Brady Bunch I'm not going to play it as if I hear that tune, it'll be stuck in my ear for weeks!!!

One pic of my "Z" bridle, black line is the power connection, ring is for the brake lines, the loop is to attach to a ring where I have the bridles gathered. I've also added a couple of knots for a brake line adjustment.

Quote:

I'm not going to play it as if I hear that tune, it'll be stuck in my ear for weeks!!!

So say we all!!

Z bridles look good And I really like the mini pigtail attachment for the bridle lines. Makes changing bridles far easier.

I have completely separated power and brake lines to use on handles....and it worked fine:



But did not work on my bar setup as occasionally the wind (?) would exert too much pressure on the brake lines causing the kite to fly backwards while I was going forwards. Going back to the z bridle fixed that because then I could allow just a little extra slack in my 'second' brake lines.

I haven't noticed any difference in performance of the kite from having all the bridles meet at the same point or having the z bridle installed.

Would like to see a picture of your cascading bridle setup - it would be nice to experiment with a slightly less angle of attack on the kite.

Quote:

I've added a depower system to my 8 and 11.8m NPWs

Quote:

There is a little trick with NPWs in that if the brake line bridles are dualled up, with one set to the power lines and the other to the brake lines then they can be flown without constant brake input, this then allows the AoA to be controlled

Quote:

One point to make though is the brake lines do not make a change in AoA and therefore not a depower. The brake lines change the profile of the trailing edge only eventually causing a back stall.

So how exactly does the depower you refererred to come into play from the mod?

Sorry it's probably my scrambled head and rambling

To depower my NPWs I add whats called a UDS (Universal Depower System) made up of five pulleys for each side. It's this system that changes the whole kites AoA.


In order to hold the TE tension for this (due to using the brake line to control AoA) I dualled the brake line bridles. BUT I also do it on my other NPWs to remove the need to fly with constant tension on the TE as that is taken care of.

I'm going to try the "Z" bridle on my non depower NPW first to see how it performs, if it works I'll then incorporate it in to my UDS setups.

Hope that makes more sense

okay..UDS...I knew I was missing something...

Wish I could see and try a kite(NASA or FB) with this sytem.
What is 'TE'?

Found this to help understand the UDS a little better..






larger legible pic:http://www.enrighthome.fsnet.co.uk/page3.htm


The key question is can you depower while flying? The answer seems to be NO. You set it down pull ball stopper and change AoA for fuller or less power. That's how it flys 'till you set it down again to change it.

Originally I guess I assumed you could depower on the fly..or hoped that's what you could do. This is not a depower-while-flying('true' depower) bar system. I guess a little too good to be true thought for FB handle flying

Still be nice to fly set up and try it.

My link didn't work...never do...? I'm missing something here too. For now copy and paste Http to URL bar....


(...Maybe someone can expains why?)

I use my 18m Phantom for the wind conditions you describe . If I am in motion and can fly the 18 hard and create apparent wind for some long periods of time. I can even carry that through a turn if I can keep it running tight and fast . This quality really stands out on fast snow or ice.

Those pictures of the UDS are what I based my system on, but a NASA needs more pulleys due to the bridling.
TE is Trailing Edge the bottom of the kite where the brake lines act, as opposed to LE which is Leading edge.

Okay I'll try and make this clear, the UDS turns a fixed bridle kite into a de-power because as you apply brake pressure the AoA changes while flying. Getting back to a NASA the TE needs tension to fly so the brake lines need to be connected to the power line side to maintain flight, as the brakes are released to get a low AoA without this the kite would not fly. I have also used a four pulley system on my 8.5m Blade and that to has worked very well.

Tried the "Z" bridle on my 5m NPW 21 today (fixed bridle) and it works very well!! With this you fly as any fixed bridle with the power line between your top two fingers. I needed to make a slight change which was to have the brake line 2cm longer than the power line to stop back stalling. Brake input is very direct.... result it's staying on for sure :D

So ... You are adjusting the AoA on the fly....

Then the ball stop you pull to adjust is simply an initial setting for AoA?


Maybe someone will have one at WBB I can try:roll:

Now we're getting close, if you read the write-up that is with those diagrams, the ball stop is actually a stop that you set and leave, the ball stop is actually loose and is to prevent the knot entering the pulley. This stop is to limit the amount of travel of the UDS, this limits the high AoA, without this the kite will start to overfly the zenith and window edge.

The other thing I add is a line from the second pulley to the fixed line, it stops the kite going past your low AoA point, once the stop is reached the kite is at max power, applying more brake once the limit is reached only acts on the brake lines and you have your back-stall for landing.

The pic shows a UDS I did for my blade, the middle pulley has a line running from it to the bottom right, that is to limit the low AoA.


Not sure if you'll get the chance to see any others in action, as far as I'm aware no-one else has tried this out.

It looks like the NPW is sort of a "work in progress".
Think I will hold off on looking into one until this development gets sorted out.
That multi-pulley and lines control system reminds me of the "rings and ropes" system they used on the early ram-air skydive canopies before they came up with the MUCH simpler slider for slowing the deployment speed.
This eliminated everything except for one square piece of rip stop material with grommets in all four corners, and worked like a charm.
Hopefully, a similar event will occur with the NPW's as well.
Bob

I see the additional 2nd pulley line also, and get the idea.

But...... doesn't the setting the ball stop correctly going to limit too low(overflying zenith) an AoA anyway?

Y'know, you should make and sell some AAA adjusters! :smug:

The next Geration NPW user:

Yes Bob it is "work in progress" however is showing very promising results!!

I've edited the post as I'd got a bit mixed up, it should make more sense now.

The problem with the adjusters is the need a bit of setting up to get the most out of the system, so then it's a case of having kites sent over, making, fitting then testing and for most ppl it'll start to get a bit expensive. But when it's my own time it makes sense for me to do it.

Nice pic if you can fly a NPW you can fly anything :D

Very good, BigE!
As I said, things look a bit involved for me at the moment.
Let me know when you can accomplish what you really need to with a bit simpler setup.
Forge on! Who knows what you may achieve?
Bob